African ethno sabre for coments

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2008, 12:39 AM

Whoa!! I guess Fernando just posted more pictures!!
Well...the hyena is out, the Rohrshach aint workin' and the 60's are over!! so I dont know what this could be.
Great sabre though! and seems most likely West African as noted.

fernando · 14th August 2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Whoa!! I guess Fernando just posted more pictures!!
Well...the hyena is out, the Rohrshach aint workin' and the 60's are over!! so I dont know what this could be.
Great sabre though! and seems most likely West African as noted.

Crossed posts.
Back again to the lizard theory ?

katana · 14th August 2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Crossed posts.
Back again to the lizard theory ?

Or the cobra ??? Looks like a hooded Cobra from this angle

David

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2008, 04:47 PM

Wow David! I saw that too, but was way into Rohrshach flashes at that point

A nagan Amazon sabre from West Africa?

I think it goes back to the very well put note in the 'hornbill' article that Tim linked, basically that stylized creatures in African material culture are representative...not representational. Sounds like wordplay, but I interpret that to mean that often African, or for that matter, many ethnographic weapons have stylized designs or shapes that carry more of a temporal image than deliberate likeness of certain creatures important in tradition or folklore. Perhaps Tim will either agree with or correct my interpretation here, as he is the artist

As I mentioned, the zoomorphic creature on the pommel of the flyssa escapes any tangible image; the trilobate hilt of the karabela on Polish and Turkish parade sabres, carried into Arabian sa'if's is believed to be an eagle head; the hook on many sabre hilts is thought to be a birds beak; and the imagery goes on even much more colorfully in Indonesian and Southeast Asian weapons.

I think all that material I posted, Fernando, was sort of a 'wild goose chase' (using even more zoomorphic metaphor!

, but I think we can be pretty sure this is as noted West African, and likely some sort of tribal regalia type piece.If I can ever remember where I saw one like this, maybe it will have more information, or perhaps it remained in the same impasse.

Tim Simmons · 14th August 2008, 05:44 PM

Jim you are to kind and to my mind right about the African iconography. I am without my PC so I cannot follow up with more information and pics. I have been trying to find stuff I post on the old forum about the hornbill knives I have. I believe in this example we just see exagerated eye sockects for poping round eyes these and other more forward looking birds tend to have in relation to small birds with more side vission if that makes sense. The hornbill image is found on many objects like loom pulleys as well as large sculpture in the round. It does not look dog like to me or aggressive.

katana · 14th August 2008, 05:53 PM

Hi Jim,

the snake is a dominant icon in African mythology. (especially in the West and the Voodoo religion which was 'exported' due to the slave trade.)

"....The demi-god Aidophedo of the West African Ashanti is also a serpent biting its own tail. In Dahomey mythology of Benin in West Africa, the serpent that supports everything on its many coils was named Dan. In the Vodou of Benin and Haiti Ayida-Weddo (a.k.a. Aida-Wedo, Aido Quedo, "Rainbow-Serpent") is a spirit of fertility, rainbows and snakes, and a companion or wife to Dan, the father of all spirits. As Vodou was exported to Haiti through the slave trade Dan became Danballah, Damballah or Damballah-Wedo...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

".....Mythological snakes that act as forces of good have various roles, such as creating the world, protecting it, or helping humans. Stories of the Fon people of West Africa tell of Da, a serpent whose 3,500 coils support the cosmic ocean in which the earth floats. Another 3,500 of its coils support the sky. Humans occasionally catch a glimpse of many-colored Da in a rainbow or in light reflected on the surface of water.,,,,"
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sa-S...nd-Snakes.html

The other interesting thing is that the Cobra only displays its 'hood' when under threat or about to strike, ideal sybolism for a sword ? The display is to warn a possible attacker of its intent, on occasions this is usually enough and the aggressor 'backs off'. (possibly, again, good symbolism on a sword)

There are instances whereby zoomorphic decoration is a combination of two or more identities. It may be possible in this case. Looking at the pommel (at the angle which suggests cobra) there is a strong hint of an elephant. The pommel from the side (to me) looks reptilian with high brow ridges. Here could be the 'combination' of two seperate talismatic creatures. Symbolically, as each creature is identifiable individually (depending on the view point) their powers are not diluted by the other....and yet they 'exist' in one form. This 'insures' that the talismatic 'power' is greater than the 'sum of its parts', due to their 'co-existance' .......a possibility

All the best
Regards David

Tim Simmons · 14th August 2008, 06:44 PM

David, I like the snake idea except the Hooded Cobra is and Asian spieces. I am not sure we are looking at an African forest Cobra.

http://www.kingsnake.com/elapids/forest_cobra.htm

Snakes are indeed very special spirit messangers in most of Africa

katana · 14th August 2008, 08:15 PM

Hi Tim,
The forest Cobra is a possibillity, nearly all cobra's have the ability to 'create' the 'hood' ...muscular movements extends the underlying long, movable ribs, and then is inflated with air from the lungs...the 'hood' is to give the impression that they are larger to potential agressors

http://zoltantakacs.com/zt/tv/04ng/s...bum.php?idx=17

"...The Forest Cobra is the second largest species of Cobra on earth. The RainForests of western Africa are home to this large predator, reaching lengths of over 7 feet this Cobra can deliver a very powerful bite to any would-be predator. Not afraid to stand their ground, the Forest Cobra is often regarded as an aggressive species in captivity...."

Other African species include the Red Spitting Cobra and one of Africa's largest Cobras, the African Black Spitting Cobra (can reach up to 7 feet in length) and are extremely aggressive in the wild. Both I believe are the 'hooded' variety.

Kind Regards David

14th August 2008, 04:47 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Wow David! I saw that too, but was way into Rohrshach flashes at that point A nagan Amazon sabre from West Africa? I think it goes back to the very well put note in the 'hornbill' article that Tim linked, basically that stylized creatures in African material culture are representative...not representational. Sounds like wordplay, but I interpret that to mean that often African, or for that matter, many ethnographic weapons have stylized designs or shapes that carry more of a temporal image than deliberate likeness of certain creatures important in tradition or folklore. Perhaps Tim will either agree with or correct my interpretation here, as he is the artist As I mentioned, the zoomorphic creature on the pommel of the flyssa escapes any tangible image; the trilobate hilt of the karabela on Polish and Turkish parade sabres, carried into Arabian sa'if's is believed to be an eagle head; the hook on many sabre hilts is thought to be a birds beak; and the imagery goes on even much more colorfully in Indonesian and Southeast Asian weapons. I think all that material I posted, Fernando, was sort of a 'wild goose chase' (using even more zoomorphic metaphor!, but I think we can be pretty sure this is as noted West African, and likely some sort of tribal regalia type piece.If I can ever remember where I saw one like this, maybe it will have more information, or perhaps it remained in the same impasse.

14th August 2008, 06:44 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	David, I like the snake idea except the Hooded Cobra is and Asian spieces. I am not sure we are looking at an African forest Cobra. http://www.kingsnake.com/elapids/forest_cobra.htm Snakes are indeed very special spirit messangers in most of Africa Last edited by Tim Simmons; 14th August 2008 at 06:50 PM. Reason: spelling

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14th August 2008, 12:39 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Whoa!! I guess Fernando just posted more pictures!! Well...the hyena is out, the Rohrshach aint workin' and the 60's are over!! so I dont know what this could be. Great sabre though! and seems most likely West African as noted.

14th August 2008, 05:44 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Jim you are to kind and to my mind right about the African iconography. I am without my PC so I cannot follow up with more information and pics. I have been trying to find stuff I post on the old forum about the hornbill knives I have. I believe in this example we just see exagerated eye sockects for poping round eyes these and other more forward looking birds tend to have in relation to small birds with more side vission if that makes sense. The hornbill image is found on many objects like loom pulleys as well as large sculpture in the round. It does not look dog like to me or aggressive.

14th August 2008, 05:53 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, the snake is a dominant icon in African mythology. (especially in the West and the Voodoo religion which was 'exported' due to the slave trade.) "....The demi-god Aidophedo of the West African Ashanti is also a serpent biting its own tail. In Dahomey mythology of Benin in West Africa, the serpent that supports everything on its many coils was named Dan. In the Vodou of Benin and Haiti Ayida-Weddo (a.k.a. Aida-Wedo, Aido Quedo, "Rainbow-Serpent") is a spirit of fertility, rainbows and snakes, and a companion or wife to Dan, the father of all spirits. As Vodou was exported to Haiti through the slave trade Dan became Danballah, Damballah or Damballah-Wedo...." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism) ".....Mythological snakes that act as forces of good have various roles, such as creating the world, protecting it, or helping humans. Stories of the Fon people of West Africa tell of Da, a serpent whose 3,500 coils support the cosmic ocean in which the earth floats. Another 3,500 of its coils support the sky. Humans occasionally catch a glimpse of many-colored Da in a rainbow or in light reflected on the surface of water.,,,," http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sa-S...nd-Snakes.html The other interesting thing is that the Cobra only displays its 'hood' when under threat or about to strike, ideal sybolism for a sword ? The display is to warn a possible attacker of its intent, on occasions this is usually enough and the aggressor 'backs off'. (possibly, again, good symbolism on a sword) There are instances whereby zoomorphic decoration is a combination of two or more identities. It may be possible in this case. Looking at the pommel (at the angle which suggests cobra) there is a strong hint of an elephant. The pommel from the side (to me) looks reptilian with high brow ridges. Here could be the 'combination' of two seperate talismatic creatures. Symbolically, as each creature is identifiable individually (depending on the view point) their powers are not diluted by the other....and yet they 'exist' in one form. This 'insures' that the talismatic 'power' is greater than the 'sum of its parts', due to their 'co-existance' .......a possibility All the best Regards David

14th August 2008, 08:15 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, The forest Cobra is a possibillity, nearly all cobra's have the ability to 'create' the 'hood' ...muscular movements extends the underlying long, movable ribs, and then is inflated with air from the lungs...the 'hood' is to give the impression that they are larger to potential agressors http://zoltantakacs.com/zt/tv/04ng/s...bum.php?idx=17 "...The Forest Cobra is the second largest species of Cobra on earth. The RainForests of western Africa are home to this large predator, reaching lengths of over 7 feet this Cobra can deliver a very powerful bite to any would-be predator. Not afraid to stand their ground, the Forest Cobra is often regarded as an aggressive species in captivity...." Other African species include the Red Spitting Cobra and one of Africa's largest Cobras, the African Black Spitting Cobra (can reach up to 7 feet in length) and are extremely aggressive in the wild. Both I believe are the 'hooded' variety. Kind Regards David