A tiny cannon for ID and coments

[BBJW]

I'd say this is probably a signal cannon. These small ones were often used to make noise to alert other ships in the dark or fog etc.

bbjw

[fernando]

Originally Posted by BBJW

I'd say this is probably a signal cannon. These small ones were often used to make noise to alert other ships in the dark or fog etc.

bbjw

Now you caught me, BBJW
I feel a bit dizzy with this sudden turning back to square one .
You mean you don't find consistence in the aproach made by the guy from Traditional Muzzleloading Forum ? (my post #24). Also the example shown by Gene in post #12, plus the fact that this particularly cilindrical barrel doesn't have a wider base to sustain it upright, as usually seen in signal cannons (thunder mugs and so), made me (and others) think this was a hand cannon (or mortar).
But of course this issue is still open for further coments and new evidence.
Could you BBJW, extend a bit your point of view ? Are you familiar with some of these things?
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

[fernando]

Some more examples of hand cannons.

[kronckew]

i feel it's a hand cannon myself, the rough bore would not be unusual after all these years of relative neglect and corrosion, probably was a bit more regular when 1st made & used.

they'd use pretty crude powder, grass wadding and convenient sized rocks for ammo, iron and lead shot is a much later application for sophisticated matchlock and later wheel locks when bores could be controlled better during mfg to reduce windage...

additionally, it was expected that the odd hand cannon or two would blow up (variance in powder quality, payload, corrosion due to poor cleaning, poor craftsmanship techniques, double loading*, etc. one reason fro a LONG stick. the bands not only held it to the stick, but kept some of the chunks of a burst barrel from zapping the shooter or those alongside.

the short barrel while not allowing maximum velocity, would give less chance of a shot sticking or jamming and blowing up the device, while still producing a satisfactory BOOM, smoke and such to frighten the horses, and if really lucky actually have the projectile hit and damage an armoured man.

of course my muzzle loading experience started with cap and ball rifled muskets & pistols, a much more modern approach.


*- one rather embarrassed yankee pvt. in the civil war was noted to have loaded his musket about a dozen times without actually firing it, each load rammed down on the previous one. luckily he DIDN'T remember to cap it before he pulled the trigger or it might have been less humorous... of course the confederates would never do such a thing , wastes ammo.

[fernando]

Much obliged for your comprehensive input, Wayne.
This gives me some self confidence, in my endeavour to change the type of stand for the piece. I started by making a square base, to put it upright, after the signal cannon assumption. I am now rehearsing a rectangular base with two forks, to relate its position to the later commonly agreed hand cannon posture.
... but i will not through away the first version ... just in case
Fernando

[kronckew]

in the absence of direct evidence we can only go on opinions and assumptions, and can never be 100% sure. the lack of a base, like fatter mug signal cannons, and the size and the banding evidence suggesting it was strapped to a stock of some sort pushed the preponderance of the evidence in my mind. the signal cannon found in an old wreck that were similar in appearance also look larger and fatter in relation to their length, supporting a vertical use for them as opposed to yours, which would be more unstable set on end; something not desirable in a maritime usage...in either case this appears to be a rare and unusual addition to your collection. thanks for sharing it with us.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!!
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!!
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman
I don't know about your "Glorious Twelfth"; but i can say that, in our "Game Opening" day, the majority of the shooters are a greater bore than that of my piece .

All the best
Fernando

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
So true, so true, I suspect it's the same the world over.
My Regards,
Norman.

[M ELEY]

Speaking of cannons, I missed out on this one the other week. Check out eBay item #170241460432. Seller said 1900? I'd say earlier, perhaps early 19th? What say you folks? Is this a signal cannon, small mortar, hand cannon, coehorn or ?

[BBJW]

Originally Posted by fernando

Now you caught me, BBJW
I feel a bit dizzy with this sudden turning back to square one .
You mean you don't find consistence in the aproach made by the guy from Traditional Muzzleloading Forum ? (my post #24). Also the example shown by Gene in post #12, plus the fact that this particularly cilindrical barrel doesn't have a wider base to sustain it upright, as usually seen in signal cannons (thunder mugs and so), made me (and others) think this was a hand cannon (or mortar).
But of course this issue is still open for further coments and new evidence.
Could you BBJW, extend a bit your point of view ? Are you familiar with some of these things?
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

I have seen very similar ones for sale in old auction catalogs and Flayderman and Co. catalogs as signal mortars. At this point you could call it whatever you wanted to. If I have time to dig thru old catalogs and find a scanner before I go out of town I will post them.
Cheers
bbjw

[fernando]

Originally Posted by BBJW

...If I have time to dig thru old catalogs and find a scanner before I go out of town I will post them.
Cheers
bbjw

That would be great, thanks.
Fernando

[fernando]

This is the replica of a XIV century hand cannon at the Lisbon Military Museum ... where pictures are not allowed
The barrel has 27 cms. and is made of hot welded staves. The whole thing, barrel and pole, measures 1,24 mts.
The tag doesn't mention its caliber, but we can see it's quite a large one, close from my example, i would say. Also the touch hole is quite significant in size, meaning that after some shooting and degradation could well become as large as the one in my specimen.
The legend in the tag confirms that these things were handled by two men; one holding the pole under the arm and pointing the barrel mouth to the enemy lines and the "bota-fogo" (an expression that became legendary), a guy with the slow match, to detonate the device. Also as already aproached here, the accuracy of the shot was very limited, but the psichologic efect of the noise, the black smoke shadow and the smell of burnt sulphur, provoked in the spirit of medieval man the conviction that he was in the presence of devil's work.
Fernando

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

This is the replica of a XIV century hand cannon at the Lisbon Military Museum ... where pictures are not allowed

Fernando

May I assume that you took the pictures Naughty boy

Thats an nice example Fernando I would forget your display stands that you showed earlier. I would get a 'stock' made for it, it'll look great. But, then I'm biased....I'd rather 'see' this cannon as a weapon....than a signalling device.

Regards David

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

May I assume that you took the pictures Naughty boy

Thats an nice example Fernando I would forget your display stands that you showed earlier. I would get a 'stock' made for it, it'll look great. But, then I'm biased....I'd rather 'see' this cannon as a weapon....than a signalling device.

Regards David

Couldn't agree more David,
Stock and bands are a must!

Gene