Post Prices Please!

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

For instance, I asked a seller, who usually advertises on his website "POR" (Price On Request) for the amount of one of his pieces.

He quoted me a price of $1100USD as "the best he could sell it for."

Another collector friend asked his price (about the same time I asked) and was quoted $750USD.

That seller sulked so much about bieng caught out Bill, He wont even quote an extortinate price to me any more!

But of course in this world of friends,associates & collector & dealer contacts, it makes no differance!

Spiral

[G. McCormack]

Why is it so inconvenient for you to make an offer?

You want to be in the biggest position of advantage possible, where transactions are concerned. Nothing wrong with that, unless it's coupled with an overarching sense of entitlement.

Making an offer puts you in a position of disadvantage...you don't have a place from which to wriggle the price down, and you don't have an instant idea whether or not you can get the piece. But thats just part of buying luxury items, you may not always be able to control every aspect of the deal.

Additionally, dealers quoting different prices for different people is a very common thing, although it's not a practice I espouse. It might be because they need the money, think you have more money than another guy, or just want more in return for dealing with a customer who is a huge pain in the ass. Or a dozen other reasons.

Many dealers prefer not to publish their prices because they dont feel like providing what is essentially a free appraisal service, one that may skew the market.



As for the forum itself, I think its a wonderful thing and as to the swap forum I have no problem with it but trust the judgement of the moderators whatever they decide.


-Garrett

[fernando]

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

...Additionally, dealers quoting different prices for different people is a very common thing, although it's not a practice I espouse. It might be because they need the money, think you have more money than another guy, or just want more in return for dealing with a customer who is a huge pain in the ass. Or a dozen other reasons. ...

Hi Garrett
Your assuming that you don't espouse such methodology gives me space to also opine that, maybe some of these (dozen) reasons would not fall into the transparency (honesty?) chest.
The posting of a price shouldn't necessarily avoid an interested member to make a higher offer, if he considers the article has a higher value (at least for him) and he wants to make sure to get it before others, as also to make a lower offer, if in good faith he thinks the item is not so valuable. In the other hand, if the swapper/seller considers that a certain member who offers to buy the article is a pain in the ass (for him), he can either answer by deliberately inflate the (previously) posted price as an undoubtfull message that he assumedly doesn't want to sell it to such person ... or just say it directly, face to face (post wise).
However in my perspective, there is a great difference between the Forum swap section and a business speculation web site.
I would risk to bet that, such swap section wasn't implemented for the members to buy things with the basic intention to come in there to sell them with a speculated profit, nor with the intent to only sell things to the member with the nicest eyes.
... Just my humble opinion
Fernando

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Garrett
Your assuming that you don't espouse such methodology gives me space to also opine that, maybe some of these (dozen) reasons would not fall into the transparency (honesty?) chest.

Most eloquenly put!

Originally Posted by fernando

........ posted price as an undoubtfull message that he assumedly doesn't want to sell it to such person ... or just say it directly, face to face (post wise).

Fernando

Could be the seller is lacking in cojones to let someone know he doesn't like them, but does not liking someone mean you don't like their money?

On the other hand,

As a buyer, I have one, and only one, dealer whom I told, (and this should be in private email, never a topic for open forum, that since I feel so shabbily treated by him for inflating the price -- $1100 to me and $750, to someone else), that I don't care if he has a solid gold jungayyan kris. I wouldn't buy it! I have no interest in supporting dealers who do this.

But this is a private matter between us and has nothing to do with any of the forum members, who currently post items now and then.

If dealers like him are naive enough to think this community is NOT a very small arena and their reputation as an honest dealer is NOT important, then they are quite foolish.

I apologize in advance if anyone feels slighted by my remarks. The dealer knows full well who he is -- I am only talking about one person.

However, it is my policy not to make offers. I buy if I see a stated price that is open to one and all and I am willing to pay that price.

[David]

Originally Posted by fernando

However in my perspective, there is a great difference between the Forum swap section and a business speculation web site.
I would risk to bet that, such swap section wasn't implemented for the members to buy things with the basic intention to come in there to sell them with a speculated profit, nor with the intent to only sell things to the member with the nicest eyes.

Thank you Fernando, i believe you have hit at the heart of the matter right here. We do not run an open marketplace here. It is a members only club. You might have noticed in fact, that the forum under discussion here is called the "Swap Forum". Now, i don't think anyone imagined that sales would not take place there as well and in fact more "sales" than "swaps" do occur. But as far as i can see this swap forum is a service for our members to help each other grow our collections or dispose of pieces when we decide to move on to something else or plan on trading up. Nothing irks me more than when dealers "join" our forum just so that they can start using the swap as their marketplace and hardly, if ever, make any posts on the regular discussion boards. As far as i am concerned, the cut-throat rules of marketplace advantage should be left at the door. I am not saying that a seller should take a bad deal for community sake, but a little transparency would go a long way in situations like this. We are a community here, and as far as i can tell from my surfing of the net, a rather unique one. IMHO we should treat each other just a little bit better that we would act in the marketplace at large.

[ALEX]

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

[David]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

Did you read my post at all Alex?
I, for one, do not think that what goes on on our forum's swap forum should be anything like "ALL major auctions". And every collector here knows what they paid for an item, how much time, effort and perhaps money they put into restoration, if any, and has at least a ballpark figure in mind of what they are willing to take for the piece. If it's about "how do i get the most amount of money off my fellow collectors in this forum for this piece regardless of what it might be worth to me" then i think priorities for our swap forum have gone a bit askew....discuss.....

[TVV]

As far as I am concerned, it is up to the seller to decide whether to post a price or not. However, personally, if I do not see a price, I usually simply move on, as I am completely unwilling to bid against myself. From this thread it is becoming obvious that naming a price will significantly improve a seller's chances to find a buyer within this forum. So it is then up to the seller to decide whether he wants to go for a quicker, easier sale, or risk a silent auction where the price could be potentially higher, but where there also will be less interest. Nothing wrong with either option in my opinion.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

Alex

The seller has the right if that person has their own website but this forum is not in that business and we are not an auction house. We are just a group that exchange ideas and information in an open and transparent way. Having blind bidding on an item to get the highest price for profit is not what this forum's mission was originally intended for. I really don't understand why a member who has a good grip on what the prices in todays market are can't post what he or she thinks is a solid price.

Lew

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

Hi Alex
Puting things that way, this would perhaps be an endless discussion. If we invert the situation, for example, the price could also be determined by how much someone is willing to sell it for. Whether we are interested in an item, depends mostly on its price; this is the difference between realy desiring it and realy wanting it ... if i make myself understood. Unless one is a tycoon, the decision to want something is inalienable from his capacity to pay for it ... unfortunately.
Certainly puting something on sale under secrecy of its price gives place to more speculation than in the contrary. Also when somebody sugests that posting the article's price gives a possibility for people be aware of its value update, without necessarily wanting to buy it, it's precisely the same the other way round; who can tell that the seller is not invinting people to make offers in order to evaluate the stuff, prior to deciding to sell it ?
My primary thaught when i visit the swap forum to see if there is something i want (and can afford) to buy, is that i am acquiring the item on a membership basis, free of speculation; so i don't have to be an expert in auction licitations, as i am not afraid i will be taken for a ride. My beleive is that forum members are more comited to transparency, not only on what touches fair prices but also, which is not less important, to describe the quality and age of the item with the isention proper of a (this) Forum atmosphere.
But of course, these are no more than points of view.
Fernando

[Maurice]

My opinion is that member collectors can offer their pieces any way they want to, cause everybody has his own "style".
Some sellers like to get an offer, some have prices listed, and others only want to swap!
One need to respect that!
That is the same of the membercollectors buying. Some like to make an offer, some want prices and others like to swap.
So I see it like a kind of sports!
I think there should no need to envy a fellow membercollector about "snatching" a piece in which you were interested.
I don't mind when it goes to another fellow collector, who offered more than I did.

If there is no "click" between seller and buyer, I even don't want to have the piece even if it was made of gold and when I am the seller I don't want to sell it to that person.

And you can turn it you want, but it still stays in the posession of the sellers till the deal is made. Till than you can always drop out if you don't trust the seller or there is no "click", but you never can deceide about an item that you didn't pay for yet.

My best collecting pieces I have are bought from sellers I respect and trust.
When possible I even pay them a visit to drink some coffee with pie , or eat Surinam food .

As a matter of fact I had an item bought some weeks ago from ebay of one of the most respected seller in my eyes, and than he put much money off the price I offered him. He didn't want to get the highest price. That is collecting fun with respect!!!!
If one respect eachother, you will see it will be a lot easier to get pieces you want.

HAPPY COLLECTING!!

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

Alex do make a good point off it .

If I really want something I offer people money and ask them if they like it or I have to come with an better offer if I like it , and I really want it.


And to Maurice always nice to see you beside the food I will take you to the special museum next time that is the place where I did get my interest 36 years ago in collecting Indonesian stuff .
I like to hang around with an true collector like you .


Ben

[ALEX]

I agree with Ben, Maurice, TVV and few others - we should respect each other's selling preferences - sellers and buyers alike (and each other as well:-) - well done guys:-) No one should dictate or force no one to sell or trade according to anyone's preferences. I am not taking any sides, I am just promoting respect and equality for all members. Asking for offer is no harm in my view - forcing a seller to publicly name the price knowing that the seller prefers not to is impolite. If someone does not wish to participate in a silent auction - simply do not - no one forces you, but do not force the other side either:-)

[Dajak]

[QUOTE=G. McCormack]Why is it so inconvenient for you to make an offer?

You want to be in the biggest position of advantage possible, where transactions are concerned. Nothing wrong with that, unless it's coupled with an overarching sense of entitlement.

Making an offer puts you in a position of disadvantage...you don't have a place from which to wriggle the price down, and you don't have an instant idea whether or not you can get the piece. But thats just part of buying luxury items, you may not always be able to control every aspect of the deal.


This is a good reason not post an price and anyone is free to make an offer or not .

I don't see the problem doing it this way .

Ben

[VANDOO]

IT BASICALLY COMES DOWN TO (IT IS THE SELLERS CHOICE HOW HE LISTS AND SELLS HIS ITEMS)

IT IS ALSO THE BUYERS CHOICE TO MAKE AN OFFER OR NOT. EITHER WAY SOMETIMES YOU CAN BENIFIT OR SOMETIMES YOU LOSE POTENTIAL BUYERS "YOU MAKES YER MOVE AND TAKES YUR CHANCES"
PERSONALLY I LIKE TO SEE A PRICE AS IT GIVES ME AN IDEA IF I CAN AFFORD IT OR NOT. MY PURCHASING POWER PUTS ME IN THE LOW END OF THE MARKET THESE DAYS AND I WOULD JUST AS SOON NOT MAKE AN OFFER THAT MAY BE MY BEST THAT WILL NOT EVEN BE HALF THE DEALERS ASKING PRICE THATS EMBARASING.
A GOOD WAY TO DETERMINE WHERE YOU ARE ON THE FOOD CHAIN OF COLLECTING IS TO BID ON 100 NICE EBAY WEAPONS AND SEE HOW MANY YOU WIN IF IT IS 2 ITEMS OR LESS YOU ARE IN MY COLLECTOR GROUP.

I UNDERSTAND SOME DEALERS NOT WANTING COLLECTORS SUCH AS MYSELF FROM KNOWING THE PRICE OF AN ITEM AS PERHAPS THEY CAN GET THINGS I COLLECTED IN THE 1960'S AT 1960'S PRICES. I CAN LOOK AT EBAY PRICES ON AUCTIONS AS WELL AS MANY SELLERS WEBSITES TO GET AN IDEA OF CURRENT PRICES IF I WANT ,SO THIS WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE TO DO IN MY CASE. I HAVE SOLD A FEW ITEMS TO OTHER COLLECTORS WHO WERE SPECIALIZING IN THAT CERTIAN FIELD WHEN I WAS NOT. BUT I MOSTLY JUST HANG ON TO MY OLD STUFF AS I AM NOT ADDING NEW ITEMS TO THE COLLECTION AT TODAYS PRICES AND LEVEL OF COMPETICIAN.