Maranao Sundang

[baganing_balyan]

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.

[baganing_balyan]

old patina is darker and oftentimes greenish.

I can even see some welding traces.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.

Yeah, right...

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not

Hmmm... good idea. I guess you'll still a long way off, in old weapons appreciation.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.

Hmmm... I sense 'something' in your writing... I guess, if an authentic piece that is well-maintain outside the Phillipines, you'll still have your doubt with its authenticity. .

Oh! btw Bill, that's a nice piece you have there, even with the repair.

[baganing_balyan]

can you not see the welding dots just above the katik on the second pic?

Now, compare that to the second kris, which I think is old and older.

Now tell me why it's old. Educate me.

[baganing_balyan]

also, study the surface of the blade. If it's grainier, then it's not older. Sharpening a snaky kris with no distinct design or pamor on both sides also makes the area near the center of the blade smooth. the blade just looks new to me.

don't tell me you want me to elaborate more on the handle which is the most problematic one.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

also, study the surface of the blade. If it's grainier, then it's not older.

This blade has been etched with ferric chloride which is more agressive than coconut water or other traditional etchants used in SE Asia.

I agree that a Moro warrior would have kept his kris in better polish and only lightly etched. However, long-time storage has taken its toll with some of the old blades (neglected by US veterans as well as by less blade-savy Filipinos) - so it's quite common to find genuine antique kris with various forms of corrosion; if gently cleaned rather than polished, the surface will look grainy.

Regards,
Kai

[baganing_balyan]

I am interested to know how the mindanao muslims long ago came up with Ferric Chloride. I did not know there was chemistry already in the Philippines then. I wish we were that scientifically advanced, Americans would not have slaughtered so many Moros in the name of manifest destiny.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I am interested to know how the mindanao muslims long ago came up with Ferric Chloride. I did not know there was chemistry already in the Philippines then. I wish we were that scientifically advanced, Americans would not have slaughtered so many Moros in the name of manifest destiny.

radio shack?

hoy, he meant it was etch recently with ferric chloride.

Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished.

here's a kris brought back in 1901

...and panabas in that same collection


see? it's varnished

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

hmmm...if only you would...
If you have know interest in antique weapons you are definitely in the wrong place my dear. Stop wasting our time.
We are being trolled and it might be best to just ignore Baganing. She obviously knows nothing about antique weapons and would rather extol the virtues of modern decorative punals then come to any real understanding of real Moro weaponry.
Educate you Baganing? If only i thought you sincerely meant this. IMHO it would seem to be a waste of time and virtual space.

[Rick]

Something occurred to me while pondering these keyed tang replacements .
Let me propose a scenario (always fun ):

Captured weapons in the field; some may have been confiscated but some may also have been destroyed on the spot .
How do you make the kris unusable ?
Break the tang .

A small unit in the field could not afford to be weighed down with every confiscated weapon on a patrol or after a skirmish .

Just musing ..........

[nacho]

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

[Rick]

I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition .
Is this a different one ?

Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ?

I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Rick

I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition .
Is this a different one ?

Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ?

I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .

for the life of me, i can't remember who told me this, but yeah, it's possible that the weapons on display might be bandholtz's. reason i said that, i was told that his descendants returned half (!) of his collection to the Philippine Govt not too long ago.
as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):






oh, and wassup fellas?

[nacho]

Yes, that's exactly how many of the blades in the exhibit looked like -- polished blades like stainless steel. I guess they must been polished to make them look nice for the exposition and then kept all these years. That's why they look that way.

I also collect ivory santos and we know that 100 year-old ivory kept inside a glass virina can look new and without the yellowing we call patina. I guess for 100 year-old kris pommels, the same thing can be expected. Meaning they can look new if kept/stored all these years.

[Nonoy Tan]

I forgot to mention ...

Paolo, I am optimistic that we in the private sector can do a lot to support the Phil National Museum (PNM) , especially in the area of inventory management, preservation and storage. A parallel goal I had in mind was to provide PNM the digitial images of its weapons inventory, which the institution can use for their electronic database. This is pro-bono work. As you could imagine, there are many other areas where we can help. We can probably work with the other museum volunteers to ren wax those blades I'll be the first one to donate 2 liters.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

for the life of me, i can't remember who told me this, but yeah, it's possible that the weapons on display might be bandholtz's. reason i said that, i was told that his descendants returned half (!) of his collection to the Philippine Govt not too long ago.
as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):






oh, and wassup fellas?

Bertha soon Ron .
Maybe a run East is in order .

The middle kris you show pretty much throws out the pointy luks being a recent development theory .

Rick

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):

Perhaps some of you more learned Moro collectors can clear something up for me. Do we really know that it was the custom to etch and darken kris blades back in the day or is this just a more modern "tradition" started by collectors who wanted to see the laminated patterns in their kris? I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this. Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny. Anyone have any photos that can prove Moros darkened their blades? Anyone have any old (or even new) written evidence? Just wondering.

[P.Abrera]

Originally Posted by nacho

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

Is this a new exhibit/display? I've not seen more than 5 or 6 of kris and barung that are part of the permanent displays at the Nat'l Museum in Manila?

[nacho]

The exhibit is new. It is in the groundfloor of the new Museum (the former Finance Building). There are over a hundred swords (moro, visayan, Luzon), dozens of spears, one round moro shield, bagobo shields, hats, Igorot weapons, war drums, and many more.

When we went there last week the doors of the exhibit room were closed as they were still fixing up part of it. However, we begged an officer of the museum to let us in -- which they graciously did.

They said the exhibit was open two/three months ago. But they want to fix the way they did the displays because right now visitors can reach in and touch the swords (there is glass partition but open on top) -- "and many do".

There is a smaller exhibit of weapons in the old museum building. That's the one with about 5 or 6 kris/barongs.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by nacho

I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

I suspect that many of these were sent back to the PI from vets here in the US and there was a custom back in the late 1800s to the mid 1900s of polishing up blades from any country to make them shiny. Many Nepalese kora were ruined this way by Victorians polishing out blade engravings. In the US collectors would do the same to PI/Moro pieces and even US Civil War swords. They would even throw away the scabbards of Moro and US Civil War pieces.

This is probably why you see so many shiny blades there in the museum. Also, once captured, the vets did not know to keep the blades in etched condition (if they werent polished),

[asomotif]

this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

Ps. where are these tourist shops ? I like to shop around there.
Do they have dayak items as well