Maranao Sundang

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 03:22 AM

Was this sword sold to you as an old kris? If it was, actually it is not. Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished.

This kris is recent due to the incorporations of different designs from different muslim communities. I am pretty sure that this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

Battara · 3rd July 2008, 03:30 AM

I again disagree - the bands appear to have patina, and varnishing is not that uncommon on wood - not a recent creation. Also I have seen and handled the things coming out of Lanao in recent years - this does not match those at all and the blade construction is laminated whereas those from Lanao are monosteel.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 03:55 AM

Bill already said it's a Maranao sword. Maranaos are form Lanao.

Show me a photo of a kris collected years ago with a cherry-varnished handle head. I would love to see it since I believe there were cherry-colored tree/woods before, not red lawaan, that are extinct now and I also believed that resin and some gluey sap were used as varnish because some lumad kids still polish their nails using them.

Battara · 3rd July 2008, 04:26 AM

I did have one years ago from a US vet that fought at the battle of Bud Bagsak in 1915 with the same red color pommel - I will have to look to see if I have a photo....

The narra tree is red on the deeper inside and often it's burl was used to make pommels......

David · 3rd July 2008, 04:31 AM

Well Bill, i don't need to tell you that this is obviously an older kris and that it is certainly not "the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector". I think that any serious collector can see that as well. Judging the age of the kris based on the rattan bands is just ridiculous. It is the blade that one must judge the kris by, not the dress, which has obviously had some repairs and adjustments over the years. I doubt, for instance, that the rattan bands were original to this kris. The pommel my have very well been changed as well. Who knows. We can see that the back asang-asang is newer than the front one. This is the nature of a sword that has seen real use. It has different repairs and different adaptaions from different periods of it's life. It is interesting that the person who linked us to a website of a man standing in front of a wall full of decorative tourist punals which she claimed to be real kris thinks that this kris is a tourist piece.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 06:13 AM

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 06:22 AM

old patina is darker and oftentimes greenish.

I can even see some welding traces.

Alam Shah · 3rd July 2008, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.

Yeah, right...

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not

Hmmm... good idea. I guess you'll still a long way off, in old weapons appreciation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.

Hmmm... I sense 'something' in your writing... I guess, if an authentic piece that is well-maintain outside the Phillipines, you'll still have your doubt with its authenticity.

.

Oh! btw Bill, that's a nice piece you have there, even with the repair.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 07:01 AM

can you not see the welding dots just above the katik on the second pic?

Now, compare that to the second kris, which I think is old and older.

Now tell me why it's old. Educate me.

David · 3rd July 2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

hmmm...if only you would...

If you have know interest in antique weapons you are definitely in the wrong place my dear. Stop wasting our time.
We are being trolled and it might be best to just ignore Baganing. She obviously knows nothing about antique weapons and would rather extol the virtues of modern decorative punals then come to any real understanding of real Moro weaponry.
Educate you Baganing? If only i thought you sincerely meant this. IMHO it would seem to be a waste of time and virtual space.

Rick · 3rd July 2008, 07:42 PM

Something occurred to me while pondering these keyed tang replacements .
Let me propose a scenario (always fun

):

Captured weapons in the field; some may have been confiscated but some may also have been destroyed on the spot .
How do you make the kris unusable ?
Break the tang .

A small unit in the field could not afford to be weighed down with every confiscated weapon on a patrol or after a skirmish .

Just musing ..........

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3rd July 2008, 03:22 AM	#1
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	Was this sword sold to you as an old kris? If it was, actually it is not. Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished. This kris is recent due to the incorporations of different designs from different muslim communities. I am pretty sure that this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

3rd July 2008, 03:30 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I again disagree - the bands appear to have patina, and varnishing is not that uncommon on wood - not a recent creation. Also I have seen and handled the things coming out of Lanao in recent years - this does not match those at all and the blade construction is laminated whereas those from Lanao are monosteel.

3rd July 2008, 03:55 AM	#3
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	Bill already said it's a Maranao sword. Maranaos are form Lanao. Show me a photo of a kris collected years ago with a cherry-varnished handle head. I would love to see it since I believe there were cherry-colored tree/woods before, not red lawaan, that are extinct now and I also believed that resin and some gluey sap were used as varnish because some lumad kids still polish their nails using them.

3rd July 2008, 04:26 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I did have one years ago from a US vet that fought at the battle of Bud Bagsak in 1915 with the same red color pommel - I will have to look to see if I have a photo.... The narra tree is red on the deeper inside and often it's burl was used to make pommels......

3rd July 2008, 04:31 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well Bill, i don't need to tell you that this is obviously an older kris and that it is certainly not "the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector". I think that any serious collector can see that as well. Judging the age of the kris based on the rattan bands is just ridiculous. It is the blade that one must judge the kris by, not the dress, which has obviously had some repairs and adjustments over the years. I doubt, for instance, that the rattan bands were original to this kris. The pommel my have very well been changed as well. Who knows. We can see that the back asang-asang is newer than the front one. This is the nature of a sword that has seen real use. It has different repairs and different adaptaions from different periods of it's life. It is interesting that the person who linked us to a website of a man standing in front of a wall full of decorative tourist punals which she claimed to be real kris thinks that this kris is a tourist piece.

3rd July 2008, 06:13 AM	#6
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment. I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it. Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not. In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum. Fake or not, I don't really care.

3rd July 2008, 06:22 AM	#7
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	old patina is darker and oftentimes greenish. I can even see some welding traces.

3rd July 2008, 07:01 AM	#9
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	can you not see the welding dots just above the katik on the second pic? Now, compare that to the second kris, which I think is old and older. Now tell me why it's old. Educate me.

3rd July 2008, 07:42 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Something occurred to me while pondering these keyed tang replacements . Let me propose a scenario (always fun ): Captured weapons in the field; some may have been confiscated but some may also have been destroyed on the spot . How do you make the kris unusable ? Break the tang . A small unit in the field could not afford to be weighed down with every confiscated weapon on a patrol or after a skirmish . Just musing ..........