Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[Bill]

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Bill

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.

Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.

I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.

I find it humorous that you answer Bill's post "not necessarily" since he clearly uses language like "you will always find exceptions", "in general" and "exception to the rule". Seems he is already saying "not necessarily" out of the gate.
Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.

I think that if you would spend the time to do a little research with the search function on this forum you might discover that this is not necessarily new information to this group of collectors. I will add, however, that both the Maguindanaos and the Tausugs had more than just one hilt design. Also it is very common to find cross-over kris that might have the blade form one group with the handle from another, either because the blade was captured, gifted or traded. Classification of these kris becomes even more difficult.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with this.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.

As for traditional names for kris, i don't know how specific the naming of kris got in the Philippines. In Indonesia regalia keris were all given personal names like Durga Dingkul, Si Tanda Langlang and Bangawan Canggu. These are names like you calling yourself Baganing Balyan.
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes.
Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html
Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html
BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...liography.html

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I find it humorous that you answer Bill's post "not necessarily" since he clearly uses language like "you will always find exceptions", "in general" and "exception to the rule". Seems he is already saying "not necessarily" out of the gate.
Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making.

I think that if you would spend the time to do a little research with the search function on this forum you might discover that this is not necessarily new information to this group of collectors. I will add, however, that both the Maguindanaos and the Tausugs had more than just one hilt design. Also it is very common to find cross-over kris that might have the blade form one group with the handle from another, either because the blade was captured, gifted or traded. Classification of these kris becomes even more difficult.

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with this.


As for traditional names for kris, i don't know how specific the naming of kris got in the Philippines. In Indonesia regalia keris were all given personal names like Durga Dingkul, Si Tanda Langlang and Bangawan Canggu. These are names like you calling yourself Baganing Balyan.
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes.
Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html
Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html
BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...liography.html

check this maranao blogger with a maranao shorter regalia kris on his side and on the wall. Maranao krises are very artsy and metallic. He has the same short krises I saw in Marawi city. I assume he is maranao because he was born in Davao. Muslims in Davao are mostly Maranao. There are samals but they live by the sea on stilt homes.

On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous.

maranao kris

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous.

look, if you're trying to bring me down to your level, it ain't working. show me where i mentioned that those krises (sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula) are the same, otherwise, quit making up stuff because the more you post, the more you're showing your ignorance in the subject matter. again, as i've inquired earlier, i'm interested, and most likely some of the collectors here, in knowing how to differentiate the difference between a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris.

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

[baganing_balyan]

You asked this very obvious question:

"can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?"

Ignorance about kris? ha? are you blind? read my post well.

I'm even into genetic evidences already and you accused me of ignorance? mmmmm... let the readers judge.

I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid.

ok, like i said, i won't go down to your level, but a word of advice, let's not get into insulting one's heritage here. it's not doing your position any good and really, it just shows your ignorance even more to a world wide audience.

but please, let's stick to the topic at hand:

can you tell me your source for the statement you made in which you said:

• the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

• and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?

also, please back up your accusations about me stating that "thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same".

otherwise, you're just exposing your (lack of) knowledge and as i've mentioned earlier, ignorance in the subject matter.
yes, i've read your posts, and it's not making a lick of sense. really.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

check this maranao blogger with a maranao shorter regalia kris on his side and on the wall. Maranao krises are very artsy and metallic. He has the same short krises I saw in Marawi city. I assume he is maranao because he was born in Davao. Muslims in Davao are mostly Maranao. There are samals but they live by the sea on stilt homes.

Actually, i believe that what is by his side and also on the wall are larger 20th century punals or gunongs. This is pretty clear from the hilt and sheath style. I think you need to learn how to distinguish your Moro weaponry better.
There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris.
Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Actually, i believe that what is by his side and also on the wall are larger 20th century punals or gungongs. This is pretty clear from the hilt and sheath style. I think you need to learn how to distinguish your Moro weaponry better.
There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris.
Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list?

as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating.

I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi. There are still smiths today in lanao who make short krises with that kind of handle.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating.

I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi.

In other words, these "shorter" kris you are citing are not actually kris.