Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[Spunjer]

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?

Baganing balyan-I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older.

was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory. Philippines has no source of Ivory. There are lumads who still wear ivory bracelets but they don't know the source. Upon inspections, I believe it could be traced back to India

and then you came with this revelation:

For example: chinese ivory trade in prespanish and during the early spanish colonization was rampant among the native of palawan and other lumad areas.

and this:

then in 19th century, europeans monopolized the ivory trade in the area of java, sumatra, and sulu. That's the reason too why javan elephants disappeared.

i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?

Hence, you cannot see an entire kris handle made of ivory.

pictures?

well, got to go...

[Spunjer]

wha-? wait a minute..

That's the problem with earlier krises, they were all known as moros.

kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Ron, i don't think she's read Cato's book.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Have you checked if those kris/kalis terms traditionaly exist in Mindanao?

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means? kris espada? Is that traditionally mindanaoan?

Kris tulid? is it tul-id?

mmmmmmmm can you check if those names of kalises and krises again existed or still exist in mindanao?

They sound recent concoction to me.

[David]

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

Well, i think you would have to ask him that yourself.
As for Cato, you should also do that for yourself as well. To date it is probably the best, if not only, book don't specifically on the subject. I am sure it is not perfect, but you would still find much to learn in it.

[Bill]

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

i'm ilonggo, and grew up in partly in Dadiangas (gensan) a couple years in Marbel, and some families in Bo. obrero, davao. but that shouldn't matter, or should it?

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

.

can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means?

Since you ask, AFAIK "luma" is a term from Maguindanao that refers to a kris which is half wavy and half straight.
Here is an example that i now own (previously owned by Battara and Spunjer) on a website put up by another of you fellow countrymen. If you navigate around this site i think you might also find quite a bit of useful information.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aocollage.html

[baganing_balyan]

mmmmm cato is one of his references.

Like that maguinadanaon kris should be dated in relation to the same krises known for their simple handles like that-- almost the same angular, clean design like t'boli swords sans bells. One does not have to wonder, geographically, tboli's and maguindanaos are neighbors.

[Battara]

David, I did not know that you have that now. I loved that piece.....

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?



was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:


and then you came with this revelation:


and this:

i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?




pictures?

well, got to go...

mmmmmm I thought when I mentioned sulu elephants, you would research or know about it. They were from java transported to Sulu. The account is still vague, and I am still collecting data.

regarding the dating of kalises:

I am interested to make a survey of weaponry from written and oral sources taking into account the community that made and used them.

I am interested to study the krises of tausugs separate from the maguindanaoans, maranaos, and samals.

If we study them like that, we can truly find out how the krises developed, differed, and looked among the muslim communities in Mindanao.

mixing all krises to make a one linear comparison does not make sense.

In studying and dating krises, we have to consider the artistry of maranaos, the metal works of the maguindanaos, the pearl and ornaments of samals, and the turkish influences among the tausugs.

Can you tell me if Cato did that? Did he present an ethnography of each muslim group so he can understand for instance the resources available in each community, the geography, the kind of art the people do, and the symbolisms they use.

in dance for instance, Pangalay of sulu is different compared to the pangalays of maguindanao, maranao, and samal. That's just for the dance, how much more for complex issues?