Andrea Ferrara blades

katana · 20th June 2008, 03:48 PM

Jim,
continuing along the idea of 'Andrea Ferrara' being a slogan, trademark etc

'Playing' on Babelfish (translation website)

FERRO ARRA translates to IRON EARNEST (Earnest iron ??) (in Italian)

Dictionary meaning of 'Earnest'... http://ardictionary.com/Earnest

Includes ...
Something of value given by the buyer to the seller, by way of token or pledge,

A trademark ?

As a name Andrea (Andrew) means 'manly'.

Regards David

Rick · 20th June 2008, 04:04 PM

Great line of thinking David .

'Serious Iron' , kind of like 'Pure Steel' as is sometimes seen on some Indian pieces .

Jeff D · 21st June 2008, 04:19 PM

Sorry for coming in late on this one, time, if only I had more time

.

Andrea Ferrara who or what was he has been debated for over 150 years. One assumption is that the name Ferrera is derived from his town. There are towns of Ferera in Spain as well as Italy (spellings vary as much as seem on the blades). The Scots themselves in the 19th century had a bias that he was from Spain. The evidence for Italy comes from a 1585 treatise on Venitian swordsmiths, by Giovan Cigogna. He mentions in the town of Belluno the "masters Giovan Donata and Andrea of the Feraras, both brothers." It is certain there was a family of bladesmiths named Ferrara but there were also others elsewhere.

From articles and stories of the 18th and 19th centuries, it is clear that the Scots thought of him as a real smith of the finest blades. not a trade mark or talismen. They also knew there where many "forgeries" from Germany and Spain. Many heirloom blades where thought to be the real thing, of course many of these real blades have also what we now know to be Solingen or Toledo marks.

Did an Andrea Ferrera produce blades in Scotland? Sir Walter Scott. seemed to think he was brought in by James V as part of a program to improve Scottish manufacturing. Lord Archibald Campbell relates a tradition in the West Highlands of Ferrera being a Spanish artist fleeing persecution after killing an apprentice who spied on him applying a secret white powder to his blades.

In any event the debate will continue for a long time yet. I will see if I can find more on this topic later. Great thread Jim!

All the Best
Jeff

fernando · 21st June 2008, 07:26 PM

So Lew, after all, the anchor is hanging on your wall (it even rhymes)

.
Isn't that wall too full of stuff ? I still have a vacant one

and my wife has long allowed me to transform the living room into a museum

.
Andrea Ferrara ... a talismanic conotation or an actual famous sword smith?
In my obvious ignorance, i am not for the mystic version, but more on the side of those who sustain that he was a real blade maker. For a start, the name (also) sounds like a plausible one. We know that most people last names were an alusion to the place they or their ancestors came from (such is my own case). Eventually Belluno is not so distant from Ferrara, right ?
But speaking of riddles with names, Jim, one thing amazing is the name associated with Boccia in Armi Bianche Italiane, Eduardo T Coelho. This is what you can call a very Portuguese name. Eventually Coelho means rabbit, and is spelled in portuguese, which is distinct from italian ... or spanish. I don't know this Italian work, but i can only understand that Boccia's partner was either a Portuguese or one with direct Portuguese origins.
I now this is not propperly a topic on anchors, but with your permission i would like to show here a mark associated with what is usualy called anchor (another atribution uncertainty). This one comes in a rare double tome work i have in Portuguese armoury, with listings and references of sword, guns and other arms makers since the XV century. This mark was engraved on a sword dated 1641, made by the smith Lourenço de Carvalho.
Isn't that (also) a sugestive mark?
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2008, 03:38 AM

Outstanding info Jeff!!! I did not know of the Venetian treatise, though the Ferrara's are indeed extremely elusive in comparison to the many of other well documented makers. The Scottish end of things of course add to the mystery and drama (I worked on my own geneology for many years, and these folks were indeed Highlanders....and with that came incredibly fascinating tales of my own ancestors). Sir Walter Scott was truly a marketing genius in his romantic stories, and I'm glad you noted Sir Archibald Campbell as the source of the Ferrara escaping to Scotland...I could not find the original source.

Thank you Fernando, the additional info on the anchors is great, and also that on Coelhos name! I love these bits of info !!! Again the depth of Portuguese presence in so much history adds wonderful new dimension.

It is really great to once again bring together all the sword detectives on these interesting mysteries!! The games afoot again gentlemen

What is best about these discussions is that we always seem to add new information to what we already had, and I'm amending my notes accordingly. Thank you so much guys,

All the best,
Jim

dominic grant · 26th June 2008, 09:25 AM

Hi Jim on the subject of Ferrara blades I have just run across this very old paper

"Notes and Queries" in the Oxford Journals

http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/iss...s7-XII/301.pdf

a damn good read

dominic grant · 26th June 2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Jim,
continuing along the idea of 'Andrea Ferrara' being a slogan, trademark

FERRO ARRA translates to IRON EARNEST (Earnest iron ??) (in Italian)

Dictionary meaning of 'Earnest'... http://ardictionary.com/Earnest

Includes ...
Something of value given by the buyer to the seller, by way of token or pledge
As a name Andrea (Andrew) means 'manly'.

Regards David

You can also have Andrew meaning TRUE and Ferrara a bastardisation of frerrous = IRON

TRUE IRON

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2008, 07:03 PM

Thanks so much Dominic for the heads up on that entry in Notes and Queries! Indeed a very good read. It is interesting to see contemporary writings from Victorian times addressing this myth on the Andrea Ferrara markings, and wishing for a time machine to have been at that Glasgow exhibition!!

Much appreciated, and strong support for Solingen production on these.

21st June 2008, 07:26 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So Lew, after all, the anchor is hanging on your wall (it even rhymes) . Isn't that wall too full of stuff ? I still have a vacant one and my wife has long allowed me to transform the living room into a museum . Andrea Ferrara ... a talismanic conotation or an actual famous sword smith? In my obvious ignorance, i am not for the mystic version, but more on the side of those who sustain that he was a real blade maker. For a start, the name (also) sounds like a plausible one. We know that most people last names were an alusion to the place they or their ancestors came from (such is my own case). Eventually Belluno is not so distant from Ferrara, right ? But speaking of riddles with names, Jim, one thing amazing is the name associated with Boccia in Armi Bianche Italiane, Eduardo T Coelho. This is what you can call a very Portuguese name. Eventually Coelho means rabbit, and is spelled in portuguese, which is distinct from italian ... or spanish. I don't know this Italian work, but i can only understand that Boccia's partner was either a Portuguese or one with direct Portuguese origins. I now this is not propperly a topic on anchors, but with your permission i would like to show here a mark associated with what is usualy called anchor (another atribution uncertainty). This one comes in a rare double tome work i have in Portuguese armoury, with listings and references of sword, guns and other arms makers since the XV century. This mark was engraved on a sword dated 1641, made by the smith Lourenço de Carvalho. Isn't that (also) a sugestive mark? Fernando Attached Images

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20th June 2008, 03:48 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Jim, continuing along the idea of 'Andrea Ferrara' being a slogan, trademark etc 'Playing' on Babelfish (translation website) FERRO ARRA translates to IRON EARNEST (Earnest iron ??) (in Italian) Dictionary meaning of 'Earnest'... http://ardictionary.com/Earnest Includes ... Something of value given by the buyer to the seller, by way of token or pledge, A trademark ? As a name Andrea (Andrew) means 'manly'. Regards David

20th June 2008, 04:04 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Great line of thinking David . 'Serious Iron' , kind of like 'Pure Steel' as is sometimes seen on some Indian pieces .

21st June 2008, 04:19 PM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Sorry for coming in late on this one, time, if only I had more time . Andrea Ferrara who or what was he has been debated for over 150 years. One assumption is that the name Ferrera is derived from his town. There are towns of Ferera in Spain as well as Italy (spellings vary as much as seem on the blades). The Scots themselves in the 19th century had a bias that he was from Spain. The evidence for Italy comes from a 1585 treatise on Venitian swordsmiths, by Giovan Cigogna. He mentions in the town of Belluno the "masters Giovan Donata and Andrea of the Feraras, both brothers." It is certain there was a family of bladesmiths named Ferrara but there were also others elsewhere. From articles and stories of the 18th and 19th centuries, it is clear that the Scots thought of him as a real smith of the finest blades. not a trade mark or talismen. They also knew there where many "forgeries" from Germany and Spain. Many heirloom blades where thought to be the real thing, of course many of these real blades have also what we now know to be Solingen or Toledo marks. Did an Andrea Ferrera produce blades in Scotland? Sir Walter Scott. seemed to think he was brought in by James V as part of a program to improve Scottish manufacturing. Lord Archibald Campbell relates a tradition in the West Highlands of Ferrera being a Spanish artist fleeing persecution after killing an apprentice who spied on him applying a secret white powder to his blades. In any event the debate will continue for a long time yet. I will see if I can find more on this topic later. Great thread Jim! All the Best Jeff

22nd June 2008, 03:38 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Outstanding info Jeff!!! I did not know of the Venetian treatise, though the Ferrara's are indeed extremely elusive in comparison to the many of other well documented makers. The Scottish end of things of course add to the mystery and drama (I worked on my own geneology for many years, and these folks were indeed Highlanders....and with that came incredibly fascinating tales of my own ancestors). Sir Walter Scott was truly a marketing genius in his romantic stories, and I'm glad you noted Sir Archibald Campbell as the source of the Ferrara escaping to Scotland...I could not find the original source. Thank you Fernando, the additional info on the anchors is great, and also that on Coelhos name! I love these bits of info !!! Again the depth of Portuguese presence in so much history adds wonderful new dimension. It is really great to once again bring together all the sword detectives on these interesting mysteries!! The games afoot again gentlemen What is best about these discussions is that we always seem to add new information to what we already had, and I'm amending my notes accordingly. Thank you so much guys, All the best, Jim

26th June 2008, 09:25 AM	#6
dominic grant Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3	Hi Jim on the subject of Ferrara blades I have just run across this very old paper "Notes and Queries" in the Oxford Journals http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/iss...s7-XII/301.pdf a damn good read

26th June 2008, 07:03 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks so much Dominic for the heads up on that entry in Notes and Queries! Indeed a very good read. It is interesting to see contemporary writings from Victorian times addressing this myth on the Andrea Ferrara markings, and wishing for a time machine to have been at that Glasgow exhibition!! Much appreciated, and strong support for Solingen production on these.