It certainly is very old ... but what is it ?

M ELEY · 27th May 2008, 03:21 AM

Alan has some excellent points, particularly about the length of the point versus the short socket and of course, the whole tool angle. I don't think we'll ever absolutely pin this one down because it IS a blacksmith made item of simple crude construction. I will still point out that crude iron made knives, swords, spear heads, and lances are so commonly found in Colonial Span weapons as to be common-place. Impractical as a lance for charging on horseback? Yes, but not if it were made as a one-shot defensive tool. Think of some of the Jhadpur armoury weapons just lying around in case of a seige. Remember the old Brown Bess bayonets fitted with a wood-turned handle issued to senior/retired British soldiers in WW2 to use in case of homeland invasion. We've all seen artifacts made from car springs and barrel hoops. I don't think this is much different. Many of the American colonial pikes had sockets like this (way too short for anything less than poking some bloke shimmying up the side of your ship). Now, we can also very easily take the other argument and say it was purely a tool based on the flat edge and crudeness. If it were my piece, I would refuse to classify it, but call it a tool/weapon. After all, this describes every Igorot head axe, every colonial spike axe/tomahawk and every adze I've ever seen. Who knows, perhaps someday someone will find a whole warehouse full of these in Bolivia marked "Craftsman"

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2008, 04:27 AM

Why call it either a tool or a weapon?

It might be a piece of BBQ cutlery.

A fitting classification could run something like :- "early iron artifact"

"artifact" covers a multitude of sins.

fernando · 27th May 2008, 11:19 PM

Thsnk you, Gentlemen!
Those were splendid aproaches to the subject.
I just wonder why this guy i visited the other day, who sells and collects weapons for a few decades, immediately catalogued it as a weapon ... actually a rural crude pike head. But of course the guy could be wrong and i am not going to act as if he were my local weapons guru ... enough of that fashion for the time being

In view of all that has been said and, pleasing Greeks and Trojans, i will provisionaly call it artitoolweaponfact ... or arteferramentarmafacto in portuguese

... if you allow me for the humour.
There is still one source i didn't yet consult, as it's a bit far from here and i only go there every now and then. He does not only know about ancient and old weapons, but also the most varied early ages artifacts. If this kind of things was ever seen around before, there is a great chance he is the one who saw them.
Untill then, all kinds of hints will be most wellcome.
Fernando

kronckew · 28th May 2008, 12:24 AM

i have visions of the invading hordes of napoleon plundering the countryside, and the local cowboy stalwarts beating their plowshares into lance heads and poking them back across the border into spain.

more seriously, didn't gauchos used to use a crude lance to control cattle in their drives. there are vague memories of reading somewhere the gauchos on their horses were the last to mount a proper lance (tacuara?) charge against modern armed troops down in so. america.

fernando · 28th May 2008, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i have visions of the invading hordes of napoleon plundering the countryside, and the local cowboy stalwarts beating their plowshares into lance heads and poking them back across the border into spain...

For a vision, is not totally unreal, Wayne

.

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2008, 12:56 AM

A cattle prod?

Yeah, I could see it as that.

Sounds good to me.

M ELEY · 29th May 2008, 02:16 AM

Wayne brings up a very plausible contender-one I had mentioned at the start of this thread. Problem is, I can't seem to find any material on these lances. I learned about them awhile back when I acquired a weird bowie knife with an inscription of a gaucho with said lance. It might have even had a spike butt cap, but don't recall. While researching them I learned about French cowboys of the Comarge region...always thought that sounded like a Monty Python script

kronckew · 29th May 2008, 08:00 AM

the only reference i've found was one that they called their 'emergency' lances tacuara, they were made by tying their knives to a length of sugar cane. the rider on the right in the photo i inserted above seems to be carrying one, the others seem to be carrying more normal lances with pennants. way back in pre-history when i was a younger, i think i read that gauchos sometimes used lances with removable points that they then carried in scabbards, but now that i could afford to buy one i also cannot find any references. the gaucho roamed from brazil down to argentina, so i assume some customs varied and changed over time.

27th May 2008, 03:21 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Alan has some excellent points, particularly about the length of the point versus the short socket and of course, the whole tool angle. I don't think we'll ever absolutely pin this one down because it IS a blacksmith made item of simple crude construction. I will still point out that crude iron made knives, swords, spear heads, and lances are so commonly found in Colonial Span weapons as to be common-place. Impractical as a lance for charging on horseback? Yes, but not if it were made as a one-shot defensive tool. Think of some of the Jhadpur armoury weapons just lying around in case of a seige. Remember the old Brown Bess bayonets fitted with a wood-turned handle issued to senior/retired British soldiers in WW2 to use in case of homeland invasion. We've all seen artifacts made from car springs and barrel hoops. I don't think this is much different. Many of the American colonial pikes had sockets like this (way too short for anything less than poking some bloke shimmying up the side of your ship). Now, we can also very easily take the other argument and say it was purely a tool based on the flat edge and crudeness. If it were my piece, I would refuse to classify it, but call it a tool/weapon. After all, this describes every Igorot head axe, every colonial spike axe/tomahawk and every adze I've ever seen. Who knows, perhaps someday someone will find a whole warehouse full of these in Bolivia marked "Craftsman" Last edited by M ELEY; 27th May 2008 at 03:23 AM. Reason: My spelling again

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

27th May 2008, 04:27 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Why call it either a tool or a weapon? It might be a piece of BBQ cutlery. A fitting classification could run something like :- "early iron artifact" "artifact" covers a multitude of sins.

27th May 2008, 11:19 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thsnk you, Gentlemen! Those were splendid aproaches to the subject. I just wonder why this guy i visited the other day, who sells and collects weapons for a few decades, immediately catalogued it as a weapon ... actually a rural crude pike head. But of course the guy could be wrong and i am not going to act as if he were my local weapons guru ... enough of that fashion for the time being In view of all that has been said and, pleasing Greeks and Trojans, i will provisionaly call it artitoolweaponfact ... or arteferramentarmafacto in portuguese ... if you allow me for the humour. There is still one source i didn't yet consult, as it's a bit far from here and i only go there every now and then. He does not only know about ancient and old weapons, but also the most varied early ages artifacts. If this kind of things was ever seen around before, there is a great chance he is the one who saw them. Untill then, all kinds of hints will be most wellcome. Fernando

28th May 2008, 12:24 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i have visions of the invading hordes of napoleon plundering the countryside, and the local cowboy stalwarts beating their plowshares into lance heads and poking them back across the border into spain. more seriously, didn't gauchos used to use a crude lance to control cattle in their drives. there are vague memories of reading somewhere the gauchos on their horses were the last to mount a proper lance (tacuara?) charge against modern armed troops down in so. america.

28th May 2008, 12:56 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	A cattle prod? Yeah, I could see it as that. Sounds good to me.

29th May 2008, 02:16 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Wayne brings up a very plausible contender-one I had mentioned at the start of this thread. Problem is, I can't seem to find any material on these lances. I learned about them awhile back when I acquired a weird bowie knife with an inscription of a gaucho with said lance. It might have even had a spike butt cap, but don't recall. While researching them I learned about French cowboys of the Comarge region...always thought that sounded like a Monty Python script

29th May 2008, 08:00 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the only reference i've found was one that they called their 'emergency' lances tacuara, they were made by tying their knives to a length of sugar cane. the rider on the right in the photo i inserted above seems to be carrying one, the others seem to be carrying more normal lances with pennants. way back in pre-history when i was a younger, i think i read that gauchos sometimes used lances with removable points that they then carried in scabbards, but now that i could afford to buy one i also cannot find any references. the gaucho roamed from brazil down to argentina, so i assume some customs varied and changed over time.