Malela luk 5 for comment..

[parong sari]

this is a rare malela wich i say because the layer of the blade is not of aging, years of cleaning nor it is a pamor.. this blade has a "miang perak", which means the metal was forge with silver in a way that the result is as what we see in the pics..

[PenangsangII]

And the ganja wulung type reminds me of bapak Ganjawulung.... Long time no hear Pak Ganja.....

[A. G. Maisey]

It is always quite difficult to comment on material from a photo. You really need to touch it, and turn the blade all around so that you can see exactly what the smith was doing when he forged it. However, based on what I can see in the photo, and assuming that an all-round inspection would not deliver any surprises, my guess is that a piece of very fibrous wrought iron has been welded with one or more other types of wrought iron to provide sufficient material to forge a blade without a core. I'd say that when the smith was finished he was probably a bit disappointed with the result, because instead of getting a blade with a nice consistent quality throughout, the fibrous iron had surfaced in a number of places, even on the edges, where it would most definitely not have been wanted.

Yes, to a present day collector this is an unusual blade and to a present day collector that probably makes it somewhat desirable, however, from the point of view of quality of fabrication, I'm afraid this blade just doesn't make it.

It is definitely not a Javanese blade.

[parong sari]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is always quite difficult to comment on material from a photo. You really need to touch it, and turn the blade all around so that you can see exactly what the smith was doing when he forged it. However, based on what I can see in the photo, and assuming that an all-round inspection would not deliver any surprises, my guess is that a piece of very fibrous wrought iron has been welded with one or more other types of wrought iron to provide sufficient material to forge a blade without a core. I'd say that when the smith was finished he was probably a bit disappointed with the result, because instead of getting a blade with a nice consistent quality throughout, the fibrous iron had surfaced in a number of places, even on the edges, where it would most definitely not have been wanted.

Yes, to a present day collector this is an unusual blade and to a present day collector that probably makes it somewhat desirable, however, from the point of view of quality of fabrication, I'm afraid this blade just doesn't make it.

It is definitely not a Javanese blade.

ofcourse this is not one of those 'javanese' blades that are forged NOT for fighting purposes but FOR display only.. that is the main difference between kerises from indonesian region and malaysian region.. just imagin some group of gunsmiths making pistols which is not for firing purposes, would they know what is really good for making a good pistol? maybe the can do some fancy design but i don't think they have any clue about persicions?

so no offence, after going through this forum, most of you guys only have knowledge about kerises from indonesia but i think you guys are clueless on when it comes to malaysian kerises.. which definately means none of you guys know on how to use it, or even the techniques of holding it, far more from learning the art of keris.. in the old days, kerises were not judge by the material or pamour, and not even the misticism behind it, but by the practicality and suitiblity to the owner. but YES, to a present day collector the pamor, design and solidness that matters..

and judging a keris by the molecular structure and saying it is not solid enough is the most ridicoulus thing i ever heard.. for instance, if you say this malela is not strong enough, let me thrust it to your belly button.. my point is don't judge a keris by its solidness because it is not forged to be used like a samurai or a sword where one uses it to block other weapons attack, because it doesn't!!

no offence again, but this is just my opinion after teaching silat and the art of kerises for twenty years.. and i personally don't favour kerises which are not forged for fighting.. hey, what's the point of having one then?? for collection maybe??

[A. G. Maisey]

What a charming and informative post Parong Sari!

Regrettably the point of exactly what you are trying to tell us has escaped me.

Since you have taken the liberty of quoting my post in full, I assume that what you have written has something to do with what I wrote.

May I be so bold as to request that you expand upon your remarks a little so that there can be no possible error in the understanding of the point that you are attempting to make?

Thank you so much for your cooperation.

[David]

hmmm....charming you say Alan? I've got another word for it.
Well, first of all parong sari, i would strongly suggest you spend just a little more time "going through this forum". If you really had you might have discovered that we have quite a few members who not only specialize in Malaysian keris, but actually live there. You might also spend a little more time studying Indonesian keris as i think you have a few misconceptions about them as well. Keris that were made with talismanic purpose in mind were certainly not meant for display only. In fact, these keris weren't made to be shown about at all. They are a private matter. And many Indo keris were indeed made for fighting. If you have any doubts about that i have a few Jawa and Bali keris that i could "thrust into your belly button" as well if that's what it takes to prove a point.
I too am curious about the actual point of your post. I asked you some direct questions earlier in this thread after welcoming you to this forum which you have yet seen fit to answer. Do you have some personal stake in this keris?
Obviously there was much that your silat teachers failed to teach you, not just about keris but also about respect. And if the only purpose that you can see for the keris is as a means to do physical harm to another being then i think you missed some major points in your lesson plan on the art of keris.

[parong sari]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....charming you say Alan? I've got another word for it.
Well, first of all parong sari, i would strongly suggest you spend just a little more time "going through this forum". If you really had you might have discovered that we have quite a few members who not only specialize in Malaysian keris, but actually live there. You might also spend a little more time studying Indonesian keris as i think you have a few misconceptions about them as well. Keris that were made with talismanic purpose in mind were certainly not meant for display only. In fact, these keris weren't made to be shown about at all. They are a private matter. And many Indo keris were indeed made for fighting. If you have any doubts about that i have a few Jawa and Bali keris that i could "thrust into your belly button".
I too am curious about the point of your post. I asked you some direct questions earlier in this thread after welcoming you to this forum which you have yet to answer. Do you have some personal stake in this keris?
Obviously there was much that your silat teachers failed to teach you, not just about keris but also about respect. And if the only purpose that you can see for the keris is as a means to do physical harm to another being then i think you missed some major points in your lesson plan on the art of keris.

if you talk about talismanic purposes, in indonesia my friend, they don't only use kerises as an object, even nails are made being a talismanic object.. nothing special about that because if you are entering a discussion in the realm of misticsism, then i guess i'm sure that you are aware of the mystical power of "besi kuning", "Besi Badal" or "Besi Leleh" used for making a powerful talismatic keris.. i don't think i saw any of that "talismatic" keris is this forum..

Silat or pencak is the form of martial arts practiced in the indo-malay archipelago, and you will never see a pencak master in indonesia using a keris as a weapon!! you could even check in competition events where indonesian athletes are favour of using "parang" (which is most likely there official weapon) or try watching old indonesian silat movies.. my encounters with their guru even said that keris is not used for fighting but rather as a status, symbol, culture, bla..bla..bla.. which means they are NOT meant for fighting.. why have a keris when you don't know how to use them?? it's not about doing major harm but more on what intention you want to use it for, either to attack or counter attact..

i don't have any interest in this keris, it's just that i've been following this forum for quite a long time and suddenly had something to say.. and keris is not about respect my friend, it's a matter of life and death.. its a WEAPON, and in the old days, you only GET respect if you are a master in USING a keris, not by owning them.. and only because some people don't know how to use it, then go ahead, make it for display or 'talsimatic" it, that is if your guru taught you how to do it..

sorry for the rude introduction but for a little info, i'm from a little state in malaysia called perak..

p/s: you could try thrusting your baliness or javanese keris to my belly button, but like i said, if you don't know the art of keris then i can guarantee you it will only go through the belly button of the owner..

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by parong sari

none of you guys know on how to use it, or even the techniques of holding it, far more from learning the art of keris.. (...) this is just my opinion after teaching silat and the art of kerises for twenty years...

Originally Posted by parong sari

i don't have any interest in this keris, it's just that i've been following this forum for quite a long time and suddenly had something to say..

p/s: you could try thrusting your baliness or javanese keris to my belly button, but like i said, if you don't know the art of keris then i can guarantee you it will only go through the belly button of the owner..

Wow!

A silat master identifies himself after less posts there are fingers on a hand. Well, being a complete newbie myself on this forum I dont have anything to loose so I want to participate too. There is an old saying that the empty drum makes the loudest noise. For being a senior silat practitioner as you say and a Guru your practice of adat and hormat seem a bit odd to me but who am I to judge other people. Nevertheless your interpretation is refreshingly modern and I wish you the best of luck on your chosen path. You students must be lucky to have such a teacher! Maybe you could please educate us a bit more on your style and its methodology regarding the use of the keris?

[A. G. Maisey]

David, please be kind to Porong Sari.

Are we harsh with children when they display their lack of knowledge?

No, of course not, we encourage them to learn. Encouragement is the father of knowledge.

However, by the same token, children often have much to teach us, because they see the world in a different way to the way in which we see it.

A child's perspective is much more limited, and from a lower position, thus he sees things in a different way, and can perhaps understand more of what can be seen from that lower perspective than we are able to understand.

We are all here to learn.

I, for one, welcome Porong Sari's refreshingly naive approach to the keris, and look forward to learning much from his future contributions to our discussions.

Whilst we learn from his immense knowledge of the world which he can see, he may be prepared to learn a little of the world to which we have access.

[David]

True, true Alan....you live and learn.

[David]

Originally Posted by parong sari

this is a rare malela wich i say because the layer of the blade is not of aging, years of cleaning nor it is a pamor.. this blade has a "miang perak", which means the metal was forge with silver in a way that the result is as what we see in the pics..

Sorry for missing your first post and not welcoming you to the forum Parong Sari.
On what do you base your assertion that this blade is forged with silver? It doesn't seem clear from the pictures. Have you handled this keris?

[Alam Shah]

A single line description of the piece would be,
Keris Malela Terengganu, Luk 5, Miang Perak...

Imho, besi malela when mixed with miang perak, weakens the structure of the blade. With the architecture of the malela's fullers, the blade strength weakens. You'll still get a lightweight blade... but.

Although unique, this is not a common practice for malela blade, afaik.
For malela blades, the metal is more 'compacted', thus enhancing its strength. Newer pieces tend to be nicely sculpted but the material, less compact.

[PenangsangII]

I always thought besi malela (not keris malela) is the type of iron that had a lot of impurities i.e. crystalite or sylvery looks, and considered as less preferrable choice in making keris.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I always thought besi malela (not keris malela) is the type of iron that had a lot of impurities i.e. crystalite or sylvery looks, and considered as less preferrable choice in making keris.

In Javanese and Malay context, it is different... refer to Northern Malay pandai besi.

Miang perak from pasir malela is different from besi malela in the peninsula context, afaik.

[PenangsangII]

Thx Alam Shah.

BTW, would it be possible that the outer layer of this keris is actually besi pasir malela and the core is besi baja similar to the ganja part?

[zartane]

thanks for the comments..