Please help on bronze axes

katana · 6th April 2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Just think of that bronze age man they found in the 1990s? with a bronze axe in the Austrian/Italian alps. ?

Hi Tim,
Otzi or Oetzi ( the name given to the 'iceman') had a copper axe, there was no added tin. I think the copper content was around 98% , the rest impurities. I'm not being pedantic, but this could be for a number of reasons one being that the axe was possibly pre-bronze age and would have not been a 'common' implement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not think there would be flashing on the originals even if they had made a stone matrix?

Tim, please, what is "flashing"

Regards David

katana · 6th April 2008, 03:26 PM

Reading through various sites/forums there are tests, radiology, CT scans etc. that COULD verify authenticity. But it seems the 'fakers' adapt to the newer tests

. Patina, as many of us know can be easily faked and many 'fakers' have got this down to a fine art. Metallurgy testing is not always conclusive either, genuinely old bronze is added to the 'molten mix' to fool a number of tests.

Kronckew, good call on the 'chisel' .....but I cannot see the function of the two 'cast loops'

Obviously the chisel would be hand-held not requiring the loops. I am beginning to wonder whether some of these so-called chisels are in fact ...chisels.

I was thinking on the lines of this ...

......

.

kronckew · 6th April 2008, 03:49 PM

flashing is the thin 'feathers' of metal that ooze from the body of the item into the thin joint where the two mold halves meet, it's usually cut or ground back, either resulting in the distinctive mold lines around the join, or if properly finished, you'll not see it at all... if you've ever done plastic airplane models, you'll remember the thin plastic you trimmed off the parts to get them to fit. flashing. there may be some in the inside of the rings where it hasn't been cleaned out fully.

katana · 6th April 2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

flashing is the thin 'feathers' of metal that ooze from the body of the item into the thin joint where the two mold halves meet, it's usually cut or ground back, either resulting in the distinctive mold lines around the join, or if properly finished, you'll not see it at all... if you've ever done plastic airplane models, you'll remember the thin plastic you trimmed off the parts to get them to fit. flashing. there may be some in the inside of the rings where it hasn't been cleaned out fully.

Thanks Kronckew

,
........so nothing to do with with raincoats then ...

I found this regarding early moulds for bronze .....interestingly it seems that after casting, 'hammer work' can improve the finished article...

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsd...32_039_041.pdf

http://www.darwincountry.org/explore/003450.html

Regards David

katana · 6th April 2008, 07:11 PM

I have since discovered that the cast axe head is not the end of the process. Obviously it would be 'cleaned up' ....apparently hot 'just cast' bronze is brittle so removing 'flashing' would only require a gentle 'tap' with a hammer (stone or bronze) to remove. Often stones were used to clean the head further. Then to create the hardened edge it would be 'work hardened' by use of a hammer, this was done cold. In effect , as the edge was hammered it would become thinner and harder. The bulk of the axe would remain softer. If problems with this process occured (such as minor cracks in the blade's edge.) The head would be re-heated to anneal it (soften) and then re-worked.

If during use the edge was damaged, it was possible to re-profile it with stone.......but without the 'work hardening' it would blunt easily. Several experts are amazed at the precision that the blade edge was produced by the hammering (to work harden) often requiring little or no 'dressing' with flat stones.
Unlike steel where a sharpening stone would improve the sharpness, the bronze blade would require a hammer, an anvil (rock) and a stone.

It seems to me that the 'chisel' (the axehead with the sprue still attached) would have a good work hardened end (repeatedly hit with a hammer as it was used as a chisel) With the two cast hoops it could be attached to a shaft......and presto....you have a hardened hammer to cold work harden your axe.....a worthy addition to your blade sharpening tool kit....I wonder

Regards David

katana · 6th April 2008, 09:53 PM

If anyone is interested there is a free PDF download of a very good, but old late 19th C book on bronze weapons etc of the UK and Ireland ...fair number of illustrations. Go to link ...on left hand side theres a small 'box', locate PDF, right click.. 'save target as' ...download to 'My Docs'. Worth searching on this site for other interesting titles.

http://www.archive.org/details/ancie...eimp00evanuoft

In this book are references to chisels, some are socketted, most look like the one's in the picture below....not one shown looks remotely like Fernando's 'first' example.(with sprue) Many of the designs and form for most implements were fairly common all over Europe. One reason being that trade for tin brought many continental traders to places like Cornwall where the exchanging of ideas etc were common. So it is unlikely that this design was unknown in Britain.

Regards David

.

fernando · 6th April 2008, 10:10 PM

I have consulted a few articles on the Iceman Oetzi. It seems as the definition of his age, as well as the composition of the axe he carried, are like the lolypops ... you can have them in various flavours. In any case, i fail to catch the relation between that saga and the probability of the axes i posted being genuine or a fake ... my primary issue.
I have taken more pictures, as i can not help being influenced by some of the questions raised here. There are marks and colour variations that could be considered intriguing. I keep thinking that the money they were sold for, is not worth the "qualified" work of a forgerer, although that is not a definite explanation. I feel i ought to give it the benefit of doubt.
Fernando

fernando · 6th April 2008, 10:24 PM

These are some of the Portuguese variations exhibited in an archeologic museum not far from my place. I had visited it some time ago, but my eyes were not particulary focused in axes, although i remember the scene. I see now that they show their collection in the Net, as also a demonstration of how the two loops were used for fixing the stave to the head. This is the end of a certain riddle

Fernando

6th April 2008, 03:26 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Reading through various sites/forums there are tests, radiology, CT scans etc. that COULD verify authenticity. But it seems the 'fakers' adapt to the newer tests . Patina, as many of us know can be easily faked and many 'fakers' have got this down to a fine art. Metallurgy testing is not always conclusive either, genuinely old bronze is added to the 'molten mix' to fool a number of tests. Kronckew, good call on the 'chisel' .....but I cannot see the function of the two 'cast loops' Obviously the chisel would be hand-held not requiring the loops. I am beginning to wonder whether some of these so-called chisels are in fact ...chisels. I was thinking on the lines of this ... ...... . Attached Images

6th April 2008, 09:53 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	If anyone is interested there is a free PDF download of a very good, but old late 19th C book on bronze weapons etc of the UK and Ireland ...fair number of illustrations. Go to link ...on left hand side theres a small 'box', locate PDF, right click.. 'save target as' ...download to 'My Docs'. Worth searching on this site for other interesting titles. http://www.archive.org/details/ancie...eimp00evanuoft In this book are references to chisels, some are socketted, most look like the one's in the picture below....not one shown looks remotely like Fernando's 'first' example.(with sprue) Many of the designs and form for most implements were fairly common all over Europe. One reason being that trade for tin brought many continental traders to places like Cornwall where the exchanging of ideas etc were common. So it is unlikely that this design was unknown in Britain. Regards David . Attached Images Last edited by katana; 7th April 2008 at 12:36 AM.

6th April 2008, 10:10 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have consulted a few articles on the Iceman Oetzi. It seems as the definition of his age, as well as the composition of the axe he carried, are like the lolypops ... you can have them in various flavours. In any case, i fail to catch the relation between that saga and the probability of the axes i posted being genuine or a fake ... my primary issue. I have taken more pictures, as i can not help being influenced by some of the questions raised here. There are marks and colour variations that could be considered intriguing. I keep thinking that the money they were sold for, is not worth the "qualified" work of a forgerer, although that is not a definite explanation. I feel i ought to give it the benefit of doubt. Fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 6th April 2008 at 11:03 PM.

6th April 2008, 10:24 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	These are some of the Portuguese variations exhibited in an archeologic museum not far from my place. I had visited it some time ago, but my eyes were not particulary focused in axes, although i remember the scene. I see now that they show their collection in the Net, as also a demonstration of how the two loops were used for fixing the stave to the head. This is the end of a certain riddle Fernando Attached Images

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6th April 2008, 03:49 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	flashing is the thin 'feathers' of metal that ooze from the body of the item into the thin joint where the two mold halves meet, it's usually cut or ground back, either resulting in the distinctive mold lines around the join, or if properly finished, you'll not see it at all... if you've ever done plastic airplane models, you'll remember the thin plastic you trimmed off the parts to get them to fit. flashing. there may be some in the inside of the rings where it hasn't been cleaned out fully.

6th April 2008, 07:11 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I have since discovered that the cast axe head is not the end of the process. Obviously it would be 'cleaned up' ....apparently hot 'just cast' bronze is brittle so removing 'flashing' would only require a gentle 'tap' with a hammer (stone or bronze) to remove. Often stones were used to clean the head further. Then to create the hardened edge it would be 'work hardened' by use of a hammer, this was done cold. In effect , as the edge was hammered it would become thinner and harder. The bulk of the axe would remain softer. If problems with this process occured (such as minor cracks in the blade's edge.) The head would be re-heated to anneal it (soften) and then re-worked. If during use the edge was damaged, it was possible to re-profile it with stone.......but without the 'work hardening' it would blunt easily. Several experts are amazed at the precision that the blade edge was produced by the hammering (to work harden) often requiring little or no 'dressing' with flat stones. Unlike steel where a sharpening stone would improve the sharpness, the bronze blade would require a hammer, an anvil (rock) and a stone. It seems to me that the 'chisel' (the axehead with the sprue still attached) would have a good work hardened end (repeatedly hit with a hammer as it was used as a chisel) With the two cast hoops it could be attached to a shaft......and presto....you have a hardened hammer to cold work harden your axe.....a worthy addition to your blade sharpening tool kit....I wonder Regards David