Does The Moro Kris Exhibit True Pamor

Emanuel · 17th March 2008, 10:57 PM

For my own usage I think I will reserve "pamor" for the formalized patterns seen in the Indo-Malay keris and use "pattern welded" as an umbrella term for every other type of complex lamination, be it random or controlled.

Since "pamor" as a Malay(?) word is used in the Indo-Malay culture only, I do not see the need to call non-Malay patterns by this same word. "Pamor" is also loaded with talismanic significance that is perhaps not applicable to other cultures.
I guess this whole question depends on how "pamor" is defined

Emanuel

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2008, 12:23 AM

As already noted, "pamor" is a Javanese and Malay word. It means "mixed", or "alloyed".

A Javanese person who sees pattern welded steel, or mechanical damascus will call it it "pamor".

If we talk about a specific pamor, we first identify what it is that we are talking about, ie, "pamor", then we give it the descriptor, eg, "udan mas", so we have:- pamor udan mas.

If we are considering , say, a piece of mechanical damascus with a random pattern, we might say that it is "pamor like wos wutah".

However, once the word pamor moves outside the Javanese or Malay languages and becomes a loan word in another language, then the users of that language that has adopted the loan word will define the meaning of the word for use in that new language. Thus, if "pamor" becomes a loan word in the English language, then the English speakers can decide what that word means to them, in English. Perhaps they might decide that "pamor" only refers to Indonesian and Malaysian pattern welding. This would be reasonable, since they already have words to describe pattern welding in other cultures.

However, there can be no doubt that the nature of pamor, the nature of mechanical damascus, the nature of pattern welded ferric material are all the same, and they are seen as such by the people who own the word "pamor", that is, the speakers of Javanese, and the Malay languages.

Now, we started to talk here about the Moro keris:- does the Moro keris have pamor or not?

An English speaker who does not know the word "pamor" will say that the pattern in a Moro blade is "pattern welding", or perhaps "damascus".

A Javanese speaker will say that the pattern in a Moro keris is "pamor".

What do the people who have the Moro style keris as a part of their culture call that which a speaker of Javanese would call "pamor"?

I think this is the question that must be answered, not what we who are not a part of that culture might want to call it.

ThePepperSkull · 12th July 2012, 08:25 AM

I must be going crazy because I remember reading about there being an equivalent word for "pamor" in bahasa sug, but I can't for the life of me remember where I found ot or what the word was. It wasn't Cato's book, but somewhere else.

Guh, now I won't be able to sleep tonight until I find it.

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17th March 2008, 10:57 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	For my own usage I think I will reserve "pamor" for the formalized patterns seen in the Indo-Malay keris and use "pattern welded" as an umbrella term for every other type of complex lamination, be it random or controlled. Since "pamor" as a Malay(?) word is used in the Indo-Malay culture only, I do not see the need to call non-Malay patterns by this same word. "Pamor" is also loaded with talismanic significance that is perhaps not applicable to other cultures. I guess this whole question depends on how "pamor" is defined Emanuel

18th March 2008, 12:23 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	As already noted, "pamor" is a Javanese and Malay word. It means "mixed", or "alloyed". A Javanese person who sees pattern welded steel, or mechanical damascus will call it it "pamor". If we talk about a specific pamor, we first identify what it is that we are talking about, ie, "pamor", then we give it the descriptor, eg, "udan mas", so we have:- pamor udan mas. If we are considering , say, a piece of mechanical damascus with a random pattern, we might say that it is "pamor like wos wutah". However, once the word pamor moves outside the Javanese or Malay languages and becomes a loan word in another language, then the users of that language that has adopted the loan word will define the meaning of the word for use in that new language. Thus, if "pamor" becomes a loan word in the English language, then the English speakers can decide what that word means to them, in English. Perhaps they might decide that "pamor" only refers to Indonesian and Malaysian pattern welding. This would be reasonable, since they already have words to describe pattern welding in other cultures. However, there can be no doubt that the nature of pamor, the nature of mechanical damascus, the nature of pattern welded ferric material are all the same, and they are seen as such by the people who own the word "pamor", that is, the speakers of Javanese, and the Malay languages. Now, we started to talk here about the Moro keris:- does the Moro keris have pamor or not? An English speaker who does not know the word "pamor" will say that the pattern in a Moro blade is "pattern welding", or perhaps "damascus". A Javanese speaker will say that the pattern in a Moro keris is "pamor". What do the people who have the Moro style keris as a part of their culture call that which a speaker of Javanese would call "pamor"? I think this is the question that must be answered, not what we who are not a part of that culture might want to call it.

12th July 2012, 08:25 AM	#3
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I must be going crazy because I remember reading about there being an equivalent word for "pamor" in bahasa sug, but I can't for the life of me remember where I found ot or what the word was. It wasn't Cato's book, but somewhere else. Guh, now I won't be able to sleep tonight until I find it.