Why Is It

[kai]

BTW, here's an example of a Moro kris with true pamor:
(Courtesy of Bill's collection .)

[Rick]

Hello Kai , Though we venture off topic (for this forum) I would propose that this example may not be a true Pamor; I would be more convinced in seeing other types of 'pamor' exhibited in Moro pieces .
All of the examples of Moro pieces (that I have seen) with any manipulation of the forging material only show this 'Turkish Ribbon' type .

Now, if I were to see a Udan Mas it might be a different story .

[A. G. Maisey]

Can we really accept that one day somebody woke up and said:- I reckon Pak Suwatsisnaam is trying to santet me; I'd better make sure he doesn't know what the pamor of my keris is, he might use it against me!

Then he whipped off to his friendly neighbourhood keris mechanic, and got a quick gonjo change so Pak Suwatsisnaam couldn't guess the pamor on his keris.

Probably better than 90% of Bali keris are wos wutah anyway, and those that are not are some other pretty innocuous sort of pamor. Be a real clever dukun who could use pamor wos wutah to santet somebody.

What I propose is this:-

a keris made with a plain black gonjo is cheaper to make than a keris made with a pamor gonjo.

the maker says to the customer that it will cost X quintals of beras more if he has a pamor gonjo rather than an iron gonjo.

customer says stick your pamor gonjo in a place where the sun don't shine; plain black gonjo is good enough for me.

over time plain black gonjo becomes the norm; simply a stylistic variation.

I am also thinking in terms of original cause, not developed belief.


In fact, I don't know if this "hide the pamor" game even existed in Bali. There seems to be some indication that it did exist in Jawa, but even there, I'm not too sure that it grew out of any belief that it afforded some protection against santet. Rather, I think it possibly grew as a justification by offended persons wanting to save face, when Sultan Agung decreed that only he in the kingdom of Mataram could wear a keris with a pamor gonjo.

We are talking Bali, and there is no doubt at all that in Bali up until quite recently the keris of the common man was a weapon.A plain iron gonjo serves its purpose as well as a pamor gonjo on a weapon, and its cheaper.

As to the difficulties involved in making large forgings.
In older Javanese keris I have seen a number of keris where it is obvious that the maker ran out of material to make a pesi. I've seen pesis forge welded into a drilled hole, I've see pesis forge welded over a stub, I've seen pesis welded on to the end of a blade and the external weld resulting in kul buntet of some similar pamor. These are Javanese keris, smaller keris than the typical 18-19th century Bali keris.

Remember this:- when you make a keris you cannot just make the blade and let it turn out whatever dimensions you like. No siree!! You have very strict formulas to stick to, to ensure that the measurements of the blade are not unfortunate for the specific client, or for the more general public in the case of a keris not being the subject of special order.Working within these strict parameters it is very easy to find that you do not have quite sufficient material to give the required dimensions, so you fudge a little and stick the pesi on with 18th century araldite, as an after-thought.When you measure a blade, the pesi doesn't count. In spite of how much some people might like to find the soul of the keris in its pesi, the fact of the matter is that the several systems of measurement ignore the pesi in calculations.

Now, if you do not have sufficient material to make a pesi, how can you have sufficient to make a gonjo?

Iron was expensive, pamor material was expensive, charcoal was expensive, and the work involved was expensive. A smith would work to minimums, not maximums, because those maximums would result in higher cost.

Nobody in their right mind spends more money than necessary, especially in an agrarian based society.

Still, this whole thing is something that cannot be proven. I cannot prove my argument, but I do think it is logical. If we can hear a logical argument in support of "hide the pamor", I'm more than happy to listen, but I think that before we begin we need to show that this "hide the pamor" belief did in fact exist in Bali.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...a keris made with a plain black gonjo is cheaper to make than a keris made with a pamor gonjo.

the maker says to the customer that it will cost X quintals of beras more if he has a pamor gonjo rather than an iron gonjo.

customer says stick your pamor gonjo in a place where the sun don't shine; plain black gonjo is good enough for me.

over time plain black gonjo becomes the norm; simply a stylistic variation.

I would think that stylistic variation would depend somewhat on the style of higher quality court keris. Would this extra cost really be a factor there? Why was it not a factor with Javanese keris?
Perhaps the "hide the pamor" game was not a factor at all in Bali, but why would those with money and power be cutting corners on keris making? This does not make sense to me.

[brekele]

hhmm...nice tema, better listen on this subject
gentleman, i only can support the discuss with pic.
because know nothing on this point
thanks Rick to bring out this subject



here a pic of kerises bali with pamor on the gonjo.

brekele

[David]

Thanks for posting the photo Brekele. When would you say these keris were made. The dress looks fairly recent to me, but i can't get a good grasp of the blades without better and closer images.

[brekele]

Hi Dave, those both keris are old but one of warangka with silver decoration and gems is new made (top) and old made warangka (down).


bre

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Probably better than 90% of Bali keris are wos wutah anyway, and those that are not are some other pretty innocuous sort of pamor. Be a real clever dukun who could use pamor wos wutah to santet somebody.

Thanks for the observation! One could argue that pamor did seem to have had less importance on Bali than on Java and, thus, it might be less likely to get focused on. (And also possibly less "needed" with the gonjo.)

In fact, I don't know if this "hide the pamor" game even existed in Bali. There seems to be some indication that it did exist in Jawa, but even there, I'm not too sure that it grew out of any belief that it afforded some protection against santet. Rather, I think it possibly grew as a justification by offended persons wanting to save face, when Sultan Agung decreed that only he in the kingdom of Mataram could wear a keris with a pamor gonjo.

We are talking Bali, and there is no doubt at all that in Bali up until quite recently the keris of the common man was a weapon.A plain iron gonjo serves its purpose as well as a pamor gonjo on a weapon, and its cheaper.
<snip>
Nobody in their right mind spends more money than necessary, especially in an agrarian based society.

Well, I'm not sure this is necessarily so. Weapons have - due to their very nature and importance - always been associated with a lot of magic, beliefs, rituals, talismans, what-have-you. These definitely served a purpose for the owner but they were not based on keeping the costs/efforts as low as possible. I'd agree that any associated cultural constraints would usually not go so far to compromise the function as a weapon. However, there are obviously a lot of added/changed things which don't have functional consequences and would thus be neutral and open to cultural developments.

If we can hear a logical argument in support of "hide the pamor", I'm more than happy to listen, but I think that before we begin we need to show that this "hide the pamor" belief did in fact exist in Bali.

Ack.!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the concept of "stylistic variation" can cover a multitude of things. Yes, of course you are right in proposing that style of a keris, and of many other things, can be derived from the practices of the leaders of a society.In fact, sometimes a style can be dictated by the leaders of a society. However, in the case of the plain black gonjo found on many Balinese keris, I would suggest that we have something that nobody at the time, and in the place where this developed, considered to be sufficiently important to be subject to the dictates or preferences of a court.

As Brekele has shown, and as Rick in his original post indicated, the plain black Bali gonjo is not a universal phenomenon. It is common, yes, but it is not universal. Amongst my own keris I have a number of old keris with pamor gonjo, I also have a number of old keris with plain black gonjo. I have two keris of extremely high quality with gonjos lacking pamor, but adorned with kniatah work.

So exactly what are we considering?

I would suggest that the matter under consideration is this:-

the majority of Balinese keris held in western collections have gonjos that lack pamor;
why is this so?

and that is pretty much what Rick asked in post # 1.

If we consider Javanese keris with plain black gonjos, there are several theories as to their existence.

There is the practice of taking a gonjo from an old keris to incorporate in the body of a new keris.

There is the simple loss of a gonjo for one reason or another, or its damage through trauma or erosion.

There is the possibility that the maker, or the original client, considered that aesthetically the keris was more pleasing with a plain gonjo rather than a pamor gonjo.

There is the belief that Sultan Agung decreed that in the Kingdom of Mataram only he could possess a keris with a pamor gonjo.

There is the "economic theory" that I have proposed.

There is the "hide the blade" theory, and really, it is "hide the blade", rather than just hide the pamor. If one understands keris, it is possible to look at only the gonjo in the wrongko and often one can know if the blade is straight, or waved, from the material in the gonjo and its shape, one can know the tangguh, and probably the pamor, if one knows the tangguh and whether the blade is straight or waved, and its pamor, then one can possibly guess the dhapur and the tuah , or talismanic power of the blade. By knowledge of the talismanic power of a blade, it can be possible to deduce the secrets of its owner.Simply by looking at the gonjo of the keris, its owner's secrets have been laid bare.
Once in possession of this information, it would be possible to mount a magically based attack on the owner. Even if no attack were to be feared, at the very least, the secrets of the owner were laid bare.

But we are talking about Jawa here. In Bali there is nowhere near the same variety in pamor and dhapur as there is in Jawa, and the concept of tangguh does not exist.Balinese society and culture has not been influenced by the Sufic beliefs which have helped to form Javanese mysticism.
When we consider Bali, we cannot consider it in the same , or even similar light, to Jawa, since perhaps the 15th century.Even prior to the 15th century, Bali was quite different to Jawa. I think it was Gajah Mada who ranted about the "vile Balinese, with their foul habits and long hair".

Whenever we consider any stylistic phenomenon , we need to consider it in terms of the characteristics of that specific society. We cannot try to understand in terms of our own society, nor in terms of a different society, but we must make an attempt to come close to an understanding of the characteristics of the society where that phenomenon exists, before we can attempt to understand some stylistic phenomenon within that society.

In Bali prior to its subjugation by the Dutch, we had an agrarian society. This society was organised under a number of minor warlords who were constantly at one another's throats. The lord of Klungkung was the spiritual leader of these minor lords, but it seemed that he lacked much influence over them.Within the areas dominated by the lords, local organisations managed the land and the water, these local organisations were formed of all married men in a community. The courts certainly had officials, but these officials held their positions on the basis of caste, and everybody, in one degree or another, was a farmer.There seems not to have been the same societal characteristic of self promotion, but rather there was a more homogeneous society dominated by the necessity to cooperate in the sharing of resources in order to survive as a community.

In old Bali there was an earthy crudity to the society. Even into the early years of the 20th century, both before and after occupation by the Dutch, much of south Bali was characterised by gangs of toughs and hoodlums who preyed upon the unwary.Alchoholism, prevalent drug use, bashings, casual murders. Bali was not the ordered society of Jawa, dominated by the Dutch, and with its refined courts, its professional courtiers, and its rampant mysticism. The nature of Balinese society, and the magic within Balinese society was closer to the sympathetic and naturalistic magic of the older cultures of both mainland and maritime SE Asia, rather than to the refined magic which existed in Jawa, that owed much of its nature to both Islamic and European influences.

The keris in this society had the nature of weapon, but it was a weapon that could attain the status of an iconic symbol within a kin group, or at a state level.However, first and foremost it was a weapon, a tool for removing the life force from another human being.

This tool was ordered, purchased and owned by farmers, practical men who needed to conserve resources to survive from one year to the next.Such men do not disperse their limited resources upon those things that are not deemed to be essential.

The fitting of a gonjo costing more than was necessary, to a tool intended for use against other human beings was not a necessary expense. It was an extravagance.This absence of extravagance in the Balinese keris is further evidenced by the most common forms of Balinese keris hilt, and Balinese wrongko. On all counts, the most common form of Balinese keris is a simple, pragmatic tool for ending human life.

It is not claimed that the plain black gonjo is an unvarying feature of the Balinese keris, but it is claimed that it is a feature that occurs more often than does the feature of a keris with pamor.

In any society there are more people with limited resources than people with excess resources. Those with excess resources in old Balinese society may have indulged themselves a little by having a gonjo with pamor on their kerises. However, I believe it is obvious that those with restricted resources felt no need to use any of those resources on the additional cost of a gonjo bearing pamor.

That, essentially, is my argument.
I am not locked into this opinion, and I am more than ready to change my opinion if it can be shown by either logical argument, or by evidence, that this opinion is wrong.

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, clearly if something that has added to cost in a weapon exists, then it must have been deemed to be necessary, for one reason or another.Its very existence demonstrates its necessity.

Nowhere have I claimed that the primary objective in weapons manufacture is to keep costs as low as possible.

What I have claimed is this:-

an iron gonjo is cheaper to produce than a pamor gonjo; it was not considered essential in old Bali to have a keris with a pamor gonjo, thus cost of a keris was reduced by fitting of an iron gonjo.

To demonstrate that this opinion is wrong it will be necessary to show that:-

1) a pamor gonjo does not cost more to produce than an iron gonjo

2) it was considered essential in old Bali to have a keris with a pamor bearing gonjo

3) the inhabitants of old Bali had such excess of resources that cost of the production of a pamor gonjo was of no consequence.

If it can be shown that all, or even one of these things is so, then clearly I will need to reconsider my opinion.

An adequately supported alternative opinion as to the reason for the predominance of plain iron gonjos found on Balinese keris will also cause me to rethink this matter.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

2) it was considered essential in old Bali to have a keris with a pamor bearing gonjo

This is the only point/hypothesis I'm trying to keep an open mind of.

Perhaps "desirable" would be preferable over "essential"...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Rick,

I would propose that this example may not be a true Pamor; I would be more convinced in seeing other types of 'pamor' exhibited in Moro pieces .
All of the examples of Moro pieces (that I have seen) with any manipulation of the forging material only show this 'Turkish Ribbon' type .

Now, if I were to see a Udan Mas it might be a different story .

So, what's your definition of pamor? As long as Pamor Sanak qualifies as pamor I'm deadsure we have pamor with Moro kris, too. At least the twistcore kris are welded of different (iron/steel/alloy)s to make a specific visual pattern. I don't see the point why a certain pattern (or some diversity) needs to be present to meet any qualifying criteria.

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Rick,


So, what's your definition of pamor? As long as Pamor Sanak qualifies as pamor I'm deadsure we have pamor with Moro kris, too. At least the twistcore kris are welded of different (iron/steel/alloy)s to make a specific visual pattern. I don't see the point why a certain pattern (or some diversity) needs to be present to meet any qualifying criteria.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,
I guess we could call the twist core kris pattern pamor sanak; but personally speaking I would be more convinced of this if I could see other recognisable Indonesian pamors evident in Moro krisses .
If there is only one pattern present in Moro kris that we can attribute an Indonesian pamor name to I will remain unsure on this matter .

Perhaps a separate thread about pamor in Moro krisses can be brought up in the Ethnographic forum .

I will be gone from the Warung until April fourth; so if I fail to respond to further posts from today on until that date I hope you will all understand .

I will be Hawaii bound at sea (can't wait!) .

Aloha for now and mahalo for your response Kai .

My best,
Rick

[kai]

Perhaps a separate thread about pamor in Moro krisses can be brought up in the Ethnographic forum .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6115

I will be Hawaii bound at sea (can't wait!) .

Have a nice vacation, Rick!

Regards,
Kai