Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

[Pukka Bundook]

Jim,

Re. the German blades often found on these swords,
Do you know if those blades cut down from the longer "Claymore" type , and made into basket hilt swords when the fashion changed, were these earlier blades too made mostly in Germany?

(There must have been an easier way to ask that question!...I'm in a rush and my brain freezes!)

All the best!

R.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jim,

Re. the German blades often found on these swords,
Do you know if those blades cut down from the longer "Claymore" type , and made into basket hilt swords when the fashion changed, were these earlier blades too made mostly in Germany?

(There must have been an easier way to ask that question!...I'm in a rush and my brain freezes!)

All the best!

R.

Nuthin' worse than the dreaded brain freeze Richard! I have learned to exercise extreme caution with frozen margaritas

Excellent question on the 'two handed swords'. According to Blair ("The Early Basket Hilt in Britain", p.378) these were in use from 15th century until the 17th century in Scotland. It would seem likely that these came to Scotland from the Continent as well, and most probably Germany. Though it is unclear when the two hand sword went out of date, Blair also notes that most modern writers suggest the early 17th c. It is known that some of these were still in use as late as Culloden, and there is an example shown in "Culloden: The Sword and the Sorrows" (p.23, 1:2) with the double shell guard. It is noted that the blade is probably from an earlier sword and rehilted to correspond with current fashion, a trend apparantly established as early as the rehilting of Wallace's sword in 1505. It is noted further that the blade is from either Solingen or Passau.

In "Scottish Swords & Dirks" (Wallace, pp.11, 24) it is noted that "..many claymores were broken up as they went out of fashion and the blades ground down for use with the basket hilt". While this statement seems convincing, it seems agreed in other sources that considerable numbers of these large two handed swords remained with families, and may well account for those brought out for Culloden.

Wallace also notes that "...a Setzordnung of 1628" lists the blades made for foreign markets included the broad double edged blades made for Scotland were termed 'grosse schotten' ("Broad Scots").

I think that the use of the larger broadsword blades for mounting in basket hilts would have been more a matter of circumstance or preference, and if an individual preferred a basket hilt this might have been done. In the case of broken blades, much as in the case of a blade being salvaged for mounted for a dirk, so might these have been used for a basket hilt. No good blade would be wasted as no Scot would forsake proud steel.
I think there is no more heart rending thing than reading "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden", E.Andrew Mowbray, 1971, who wrote and illustrated an account of the travesty of a fence railing at Twickenham House fashioned from the blades of the swords of the fallen Scots on that tragic day.

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Thanks all for the comments so far. before we go on with this thread I think it would be good to review the basics, starting with the hilt types. I will start with what I can find in the literature (I will plagiarise heavily from the texts and will put all references at the end after working my way through the different hilt types). It would be great if the expertise of Paul, Jim, Eljay and the others could add on.

Starting with the earliest mature form;

The English Hilt (aka; Irish Hilt, Twysden hilt, Highland Hilts). These hilts are thought to predate the more familiar Scottish hilts. They were in use around the mid portion of the 16th century. They came to be associated with the Highland Scots and Irish. Oakeshott reasons this on the fact that a lot of Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster bringing a number of Highland mercenaries into Ireland during the subsequent wars. This form is the same as the Sword of Sir William Twysden (1566-1629) of Royden Hall, Kent (Currently in the Met. New York). I think it was Claude Blair who first started referring to this style as 'Twysden Hilt' this name seems to have caught on including the current best reference on baskethilts by Mazansky, as previously mentioned by Jim. Rather than describe the hilt I will try to post a number of photo's First is my Backsword, next is the Twysden sword and third is another example.

[Jeff D]

From the Englishhilt a number of styles developed. In the mid to late 17th century in the Western Highlands the Ribbonhilt (aka beaknose). Mazansky notes that there are four consistent features. 1) a residual quillion to form a beaknose, 2) Broad flat bars (the ribbon), 3) An S filler, 4) A flat ring that the side guards attatch to which then curves around 2/3rds of the base of the pommel.

Unfortunately I have to get ready for hockey and will try to add more tomorrow.

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Fantastic! and well done Jeff. This is exactly where I hoped this would go. To focus on the various forms and thier development. As noted, the Twysden is quite early, and the blank saltire plates and connecting strips of the general form apparantly continue on many of the later English hilts in the 18th century. The ribbon hilt, as noted, seems about mid 17th century, though most that I have seen would seem c.1680-90.

I am curious on the pierced saltire plates and it seems they might have begun with influence from the pierced hearts I mentioned on some German dusagge basket hilt plates. I would like to discover also if possible, were the Glasgow hilts the earliest to use the pierced shapes?

Thank you Jeff!
All the best,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Gentlemen,

I have been following this thread with great interest and would like to say that it is extremely informative. The level of contribution, that is scholarship, is terrific.

For those who are in possesion of antiques, it would be nice if they could provide the vital stats of the weapons, like weight, blade length, width, position of COP etc.

Keep is up. I am learning heaps.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Chris! and that is an excellent suggestion on adding the stats on weapons posted. What is great about these type of discussions focused on a particular topic is that we can all pool resources, share the weapons owned privately, as well as seen in museums, and thereby all learn together. Thank you for the kind words, and the very helpful suggestion.

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,
Lets get through the basics and see if the forum can come up with an answer (ie. I don't have an answer but will keep looking ).

Hi Chris,
Hopefully I can dig out the swords and get a few answers for you.

All the Best
Jeff