Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

Pukka Bundook · 19th February 2008, 06:59 AM

Paul,

I thank you for your detailed reply, re. the discovery of the MacGragor sword, it is very fascinating, and could have ended in a tragic manner , had not the sword been rescued from the byre before it was too far gone.

I also thank you for answering the question re. the lining of the hilt. It makes sense to protect the hand from any ivading bars!

When you mentioned Sherrifmuir, I thought of the painting hanging in Elien-Donan, of the McRaes dancing on the rooftop the night before the battle.

Jim,
The story of the swords being given to the combatants seems to me a bit questionable. ...Would have thought that MacGregor would not have gone walking out without wearing his own.
My grandfather always used to say: "when it's fair, take a coat, When it's raining, please yourself.."
and I think this could be altered somewhat to cover the sword in those times.
(This is pure speculation on my part.)
Also for a swordsman to throw Any good blade into the loch seems to me rather unlikely but having said that, I wasn't there to see what happened!!
If I Had been, and he Did, I'd have marked the spot Very carefully!!

Richard.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2008, 07:34 PM

Hi Richard,
Very good observation, and actually in responding with the detail from that particular reference, it was placed in the sense that this account, is indeed quite questionable. It may well be remembered however, that although the official proscription of weapons did not take place until after the '45, at least not in the degree typically recorded, there was a great deal of tension in Scotland in the times between the '15 and the '45. MacGregor had been in a great deal of trouble, and being in his 60's in 1734, probably no longer regularly wore his weapons. Naturally, the veracity of this depends on which account or literature you are reading.

In reviewing this particular account, my suggestion was that MacGregor, probably would not have thrown a sword into the lake, even if it wasn't his own. The suggestion in the account that he did, was probably added to amplify his anger and dramatize his realization that he was no longer the stalwart warrior he had been.

Though I question the accuracy of this reference, it was included here to establish it as a matter of record in the discussion, and that is clearly disputable.

I completely agree, I'm extremely glad that Paul pursued the location of this most important sword and rescued it from further deterioration. It makes my heart glad to see these wonderful old warriors saved!!

All best regards,
Jim

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19th February 2008, 06:59 AM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Paul, I thank you for your detailed reply, re. the discovery of the MacGragor sword, it is very fascinating, and could have ended in a tragic manner , had not the sword been rescued from the byre before it was too far gone. I also thank you for answering the question re. the lining of the hilt. It makes sense to protect the hand from any ivading bars! When you mentioned Sherrifmuir, I thought of the painting hanging in Elien-Donan, of the McRaes dancing on the rooftop the night before the battle. Jim, The story of the swords being given to the combatants seems to me a bit questionable. ...Would have thought that MacGregor would not have gone walking out without wearing his own. My grandfather always used to say: "when it's fair, take a coat, When it's raining, please yourself.." and I think this could be altered somewhat to cover the sword in those times. (This is pure speculation on my part.) Also for a swordsman to throw Any good blade into the loch seems to me rather unlikely but having said that, I wasn't there to see what happened!! If I Had been, and he Did, I'd have marked the spot Very carefully!! Richard.

19th February 2008, 07:34 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Hi Richard, Very good observation, and actually in responding with the detail from that particular reference, it was placed in the sense that this account, is indeed quite questionable. It may well be remembered however, that although the official proscription of weapons did not take place until after the '45, at least not in the degree typically recorded, there was a great deal of tension in Scotland in the times between the '15 and the '45. MacGregor had been in a great deal of trouble, and being in his 60's in 1734, probably no longer regularly wore his weapons. Naturally, the veracity of this depends on which account or literature you are reading. In reviewing this particular account, my suggestion was that MacGregor, probably would not have thrown a sword into the lake, even if it wasn't his own. The suggestion in the account that he did, was probably added to amplify his anger and dramatize his realization that he was no longer the stalwart warrior he had been. Though I question the accuracy of this reference, it was included here to establish it as a matter of record in the discussion, and that is clearly disputable. I completely agree, I'm extremely glad that Paul pursued the location of this most important sword and rescued it from further deterioration. It makes my heart glad to see these wonderful old warriors saved!! All best regards, Jim