Ethnographical weapons re-interpretated

Andrew · 20th March 2005, 05:51 AM

I'm in Timonium, and pressed for time as my laptop's battery is running low and the charger is home in Florida.

However, let me say I really enjoy your interpretive designs, Antonio, and not just that dha which, of course, I really like. Some of your Japanese inspired swords are attractive to me in ways most Japanese swords are not.

I'm one of those collectors that likes to aquire. However, I really obsess about only one particular form at a time. For some years, it has been dha, and I luxuriate in the seemingly endless variations and interpretations seen from the original culture. I think it's perfectly acceptable to arrive at one's own interpretation of a weapon form. These are things, after all, and so long as they are not presented as something they are not, I'm not interested in entertaining criticism of my "failure" to adhere to conservation of the original.

My interpretation of a Thai darb designed with and executed by sword maker John Lundemo:

Antonio Cejunior · 20th March 2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm in Timonium, and pressed for time as my laptop's battery is running low and the charger is home in Florida.

However, let me say I really enjoy your interpretive designs, Antonio, and not just that dha which, of course, I really like. Some of your Japanese inspired swords are attractive to me in ways most Japanese swords are not.

I'm one of those collectors that likes to aquire. However, I really obsess about only one particular form at a time. For some years, it has been dha, and I luxuriate in the seemingly endless variations and interpretations seen from the original culture. I think it's perfectly acceptable to arrive at one's own interpretation of a weapon form. These are things, after all, and so long as they are not presented as something they are not, I'm not interested in entertaining criticism of my "failure" to adhere to conservation of the original.

My interpretation of a Thai darb designed with and executed by sword maker John Lundemo:

Hi Andrew,

Hope your trip is going well and your computer is holding.
Your words are too kind, as always

I've always liked that dha, specially the damascus work.
You see, what I think it is we are all hybrid ourselves, for long. Countries were shaped by layers of invaders that mixed with the earlier ones.
And the US is the permanent melting pot that has proven to be one of the forerunners of present day culture.
This being said, I do admire your devotion to the dha.
I myself have a compulsion to take things that touch me, and try to change it.
In my dhakris project still to be made, it was this detail that touched me profoundly

for the beauty of the details which I felt could be incorporated in the spine of a blade-to-be...

As for the Japanese style, they are more common and are becoming boring, or unchallanging

Too formal wraps done a ten thousand times. As a designer it reminds me of a dog chasing its own tail.

Thank you for your inputs my friend,
Wish you a very nice weekend.

Antonio

BluErf · 20th March 2005, 12:49 PM

Hello Antonio,

Have you considered placing the greneng (the design from the longer asymmetric end of the kris) design on the cutting edge side instead?

Like this:

Antonio Cejunior · 20th March 2005, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hello Antonio,

Have you considered placing the greneng (the design from the longer asymmetric end of the kris) design on the cutting edge side instead?

Like this:

Hello BluErf

I did consider it, but it would remind me of the Kukhri solution

I did however consider how to blend it with the scabbard.

Thank you for the suggestion though. It looks wonderful in your picture since it is not as long as the cut out I took exactly from the longer end

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 01:41 PM

Another thing you might look into are the extended split off/welded on decorations that come off the blade base of some jimpuls and mandaus, as well as (similar) those on mambele ('Zande, 'Gombe, etc. sickle-sword; BTW I was recently told this is pronounced M'mambele; not sure whether to believe that; I've never seen it written that way)

Federico · 21st March 2005, 05:35 AM

OK, first off beautiful piece, regardless of the context. Very faithful to the aesthetic of more classical pieces, while having a very unique modern flare.

As for re-interpretation of ethnographic pieces, I believe Mike hit it right on the head, when he spoke of context, particularly in representation. Many of us here also have non-ethnographic pieces as well. On many levels modern non-ethnographic pieces hold a valuable niche in of in themselves. They are modern art and often practical interpretations of pieces whose own working lives are no more due to their own inherent rarity. Yet, for me, what makes a piece ethnographical is its rooting within a cultural context. If an interpretation is made, no matter how faithful its superficial resemblence is to an ethnographic piece, without the cultural context of intention/rooting, it is still just a modern interpretation. Meaning for me, if we say we are speaking about modern made khukris, if a Westerner made a perfect replica, but whose life and intention in creation was not rooted in the tradition of use and ownership but rather was an expression of mere visual art, while in value as a work of art, it would not be to me a traditional khukri. Whereas, the ugliest bolo, pounded out of a leaf spring, full of file and hammer marks, but with the intention of serving a traditional cultural role, lets say hanging off a farmers belt for work, or in the case of some modern Moro swords, marking off a man's status within adult life, then it is an ethnographic piece. I guess for me it comes down to how I view ethnographic pieces, the value in them is not just the innate material merit of the piece itself, but the cultural connotations and history that they inhabit. Now that is not to say a Westerner could not make an ethnographic piece, or what pieces in any given culture will inhabit that niche. Cultures/civilizations are dynamic, constantly in a state of flux. However, it is all dependent on the intention of its creation. Now, that is not to say non-ethnographic pieces do not have value or worth, but I cannot call a Western made kris, made without tradition or intention, to be displayed on a Western wall, where its value will not be rooted in Moro culture, but as an expression of Western cultural interpretation, a Moro kris. I can call it a Western interpretation, but without the intention, then... Hmmm...Ive rambled, and dont think I make much sense. Oh well, Mike said it better.

ariel · 21st March 2005, 07:34 PM

I greatly admire modern artisans who are trying to reproduce and reinvent ancient weapons. Their dedication to the field, tenacity in execution and respect for tradition are inspiring. The final fruit of their labor is often functionally superior to the original: after all, the old masters had no access to modern steels, instruments, materials and technology. If I were to go to a sword battle, I'd probably choose a good modern replica rather than the original.
Having said that, as a collector I would not buy a modern rendition of a shashka, a yataghan or a dha. For me, 99% of the value is in the history of the sword, not in it's technological attributes. No matter how well modern replicas are executed, how dedicated their creator was and how close they are to the original, they totally lack an element of The Past.

Antonio Cejunior · 23rd March 2005, 04:11 AM

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your input and apologies for my delayed reply.

One of the basic definitions of kitsch is the inferior copy of an existing piece, which embodies a lack of experimentation of the context in which the original piece was made.

In this case I would place all the Chinese and American made katanas in this category.

I am not putting words in your mouth. I am just thinking out loud myself.

It can also be merely repeating convention and formula, lacking the sense of creativity and originality displayed in genuine art.

I don't see this happening in both definitions when it comes to re-interpreting. However I think that a contemporary piece can exist side by side with a historical piece, the former being a inheritor of the later, in as much as we are the same. Otherwise how could we justify our own existence today as being an evolutionary process that preserving the past does not deny the present?

I guess we are in total agreement

Thanks Kaibigan

20th March 2005, 12:49 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hello Antonio, Have you considered placing the greneng (the design from the longer asymmetric end of the kris) design on the cutting edge side instead? Like this: Attached Images

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20th March 2005, 05:51 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm in Timonium, and pressed for time as my laptop's battery is running low and the charger is home in Florida. However, let me say I really enjoy your interpretive designs, Antonio, and not just that dha which, of course, I really like. Some of your Japanese inspired swords are attractive to me in ways most Japanese swords are not. I'm one of those collectors that likes to aquire. However, I really obsess about only one particular form at a time. For some years, it has been dha, and I luxuriate in the seemingly endless variations and interpretations seen from the original culture. I think it's perfectly acceptable to arrive at one's own interpretation of a weapon form. These are things, after all, and so long as they are not presented as something they are not, I'm not interested in entertaining criticism of my "failure" to adhere to conservation of the original. My interpretation of a Thai darb designed with and executed by sword maker John Lundemo:

20th March 2005, 01:41 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Another thing you might look into are the extended split off/welded on decorations that come off the blade base of some jimpuls and mandaus, as well as (similar) those on mambele ('Zande, 'Gombe, etc. sickle-sword; BTW I was recently told this is pronounced M'mambele; not sure whether to believe that; I've never seen it written that way)

21st March 2005, 05:35 AM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	OK, first off beautiful piece, regardless of the context. Very faithful to the aesthetic of more classical pieces, while having a very unique modern flare. As for re-interpretation of ethnographic pieces, I believe Mike hit it right on the head, when he spoke of context, particularly in representation. Many of us here also have non-ethnographic pieces as well. On many levels modern non-ethnographic pieces hold a valuable niche in of in themselves. They are modern art and often practical interpretations of pieces whose own working lives are no more due to their own inherent rarity. Yet, for me, what makes a piece ethnographical is its rooting within a cultural context. If an interpretation is made, no matter how faithful its superficial resemblence is to an ethnographic piece, without the cultural context of intention/rooting, it is still just a modern interpretation. Meaning for me, if we say we are speaking about modern made khukris, if a Westerner made a perfect replica, but whose life and intention in creation was not rooted in the tradition of use and ownership but rather was an expression of mere visual art, while in value as a work of art, it would not be to me a traditional khukri. Whereas, the ugliest bolo, pounded out of a leaf spring, full of file and hammer marks, but with the intention of serving a traditional cultural role, lets say hanging off a farmers belt for work, or in the case of some modern Moro swords, marking off a man's status within adult life, then it is an ethnographic piece. I guess for me it comes down to how I view ethnographic pieces, the value in them is not just the innate material merit of the piece itself, but the cultural connotations and history that they inhabit. Now that is not to say a Westerner could not make an ethnographic piece, or what pieces in any given culture will inhabit that niche. Cultures/civilizations are dynamic, constantly in a state of flux. However, it is all dependent on the intention of its creation. Now, that is not to say non-ethnographic pieces do not have value or worth, but I cannot call a Western made kris, made without tradition or intention, to be displayed on a Western wall, where its value will not be rooted in Moro culture, but as an expression of Western cultural interpretation, a Moro kris. I can call it a Western interpretation, but without the intention, then... Hmmm...Ive rambled, and dont think I make much sense. Oh well, Mike said it better.

21st March 2005, 07:34 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I greatly admire modern artisans who are trying to reproduce and reinvent ancient weapons. Their dedication to the field, tenacity in execution and respect for tradition are inspiring. The final fruit of their labor is often functionally superior to the original: after all, the old masters had no access to modern steels, instruments, materials and technology. If I were to go to a sword battle, I'd probably choose a good modern replica rather than the original. Having said that, as a collector I would not buy a modern rendition of a shashka, a yataghan or a dha. For me, 99% of the value is in the history of the sword, not in it's technological attributes. No matter how well modern replicas are executed, how dedicated their creator was and how close they are to the original, they totally lack an element of The Past.

23rd March 2005, 04:11 AM	#8
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Hi Fred, Thanks for your input and apologies for my delayed reply. One of the basic definitions of kitsch is the inferior copy of an existing piece, which embodies a lack of experimentation of the context in which the original piece was made. In this case I would place all the Chinese and American made katanas in this category. I am not putting words in your mouth. I am just thinking out loud myself. It can also be merely repeating convention and formula, lacking the sense of creativity and originality displayed in genuine art. I don't see this happening in both definitions when it comes to re-interpreting. However I think that a contemporary piece can exist side by side with a historical piece, the former being a inheritor of the later, in as much as we are the same. Otherwise how could we justify our own existence today as being an evolutionary process that preserving the past does not deny the present? I guess we are in total agreement Thanks Kaibigan