Ottoman Pala

rand · 25th January 2008, 05:33 PM

Hey Jim,

Would certainly agree with you that older blades have been remounted, there are ample examples of this. This auction is one good illustration of a remounted blade. http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?sample=3162

Have no direct evidence to speculate on swords for generals, an article on Islamic presentation swords/arms would be illuminating and interesting.

rand

Battara · 25th January 2008, 08:11 PM

Sorry I'm late folks -

Hi Ariel and all:

The koftgari I agree is a later addition as Rand said. I took a look at the pictures and the quality is more in keeping with that commonly coming out of India now. I think it may be that it is a restoration based on the remnents of what was originally there (I would hope anyway

) and if so I would call it a restoration. As restorers they may have had to re-cross hatch the area to have sharper grooves to "catch" the koftgari. This would of course not be true inlay but koftgari on the surface.

eftihis · 6th February 2008, 01:54 PM

Hallo, the photos below are from the book "portrait types of the midway plaisance" printed in St. Louis in 1894. The book is a "collection of photographs of individual types of various nations from all parts of the world who represented, in the department of ethnology, the manners, customs, dress, religions, music and other distinctive traits and peculiarities of their race", and the photos have been taken at the 6 months of the Worlds Columbian exposition. There many nice photos, with great costumes but some confusing things between the dress and who wears it: Turkish dress by Jews, Greek dress by an Albanian, A Bashibuzuk by a greek, a Janissary by an Armenian! It seems that some of the "models" for the dresses were mostly professional actor-like characters from an area where many ethnic groups lived, and felt free to wear whatever costume from their area...
Anyway, on the page of the 2 photos below the title is: NICHAN (Armenian) and the description states: ..."Mr. Nichan, the JAnizary, is an Armenian, born at Savaz, Armenia, about 500 miles from Constantinople. He was one of the life guards of the late Sultan Abdul Aziz (he died 1876)................The great carved sword he wears, sheathed in a beautiful scabbard set with jewels and richly ornamented, was presented to him by the Sultan for meritorious services"
Therefore we have a proof that these swords were made untill recently, ie at least untill arround 1870s. And here is an example for what they were used for, ie as presentation swords.

rand · 6th February 2008, 02:29 PM

Great Post Eftihis!!!

Being made as a gift for a guard offers some possible explanations for the techniques used in the manufacture of these scabbards. Have handled four of these swords and three had earlier blades while one sword with a short dramatically curving blade was newly made when the scabbard was made.

Believe the earliest blade of the four was dated 1714 and the most recent was in the 1840's. The sword dated in the 1840's was a sharply curved short shamshir style blade, the other three blades were all earlier kilij blades. They all had copper scabbards / hilts, that had a silver wash with gold wash over the silver. All had hundreds pf coral and turquoise held in low quality made bezels. All four scabbards were about the same quality of craftsmanship which begs the question of was that craftsmanship of a very similar quality maintained over a 120 plus year span of time? Or were all these swords assembled in a shorter period of time from both older and new at the time blades.

Whats your opinion?

rand

eftihis · 6th February 2008, 02:44 PM

Sorry Rand, i cannot tell. I havent handled any, and i personally dislike this overdecorated style. I know that the Sultans used to give swords and furs as presents, and i know that this happened in Crete in 1645, when the Sultan gave to his general 2 "valuable" swords as a reword for the first victories. (The war was to continue another 24 years...)

25th January 2008, 05:33 PM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Remounted Older Blades Hey Jim, Would certainly agree with you that older blades have been remounted, there are ample examples of this. This auction is one good illustration of a remounted blade. http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?sample=3162 Have no direct evidence to speculate on swords for generals, an article on Islamic presentation swords/arms would be illuminating and interesting. rand Attached Images

6th February 2008, 01:54 PM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hallo, the photos below are from the book "portrait types of the midway plaisance" printed in St. Louis in 1894. The book is a "collection of photographs of individual types of various nations from all parts of the world who represented, in the department of ethnology, the manners, customs, dress, religions, music and other distinctive traits and peculiarities of their race", and the photos have been taken at the 6 months of the Worlds Columbian exposition. There many nice photos, with great costumes but some confusing things between the dress and who wears it: Turkish dress by Jews, Greek dress by an Albanian, A Bashibuzuk by a greek, a Janissary by an Armenian! It seems that some of the "models" for the dresses were mostly professional actor-like characters from an area where many ethnic groups lived, and felt free to wear whatever costume from their area... Anyway, on the page of the 2 photos below the title is: NICHAN (Armenian) and the description states: ..."Mr. Nichan, the JAnizary, is an Armenian, born at Savaz, Armenia, about 500 miles from Constantinople. He was one of the life guards of the late Sultan Abdul Aziz (he died 1876)................The great carved sword he wears, sheathed in a beautiful scabbard set with jewels and richly ornamented, was presented to him by the Sultan for meritorious services" Therefore we have a proof that these swords were made untill recently, ie at least untill arround 1870s. And here is an example for what they were used for, ie as presentation swords. Attached Images

6th February 2008, 02:29 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Pala Great Post Eftihis!!! Being made as a gift for a guard offers some possible explanations for the techniques used in the manufacture of these scabbards. Have handled four of these swords and three had earlier blades while one sword with a short dramatically curving blade was newly made when the scabbard was made. Believe the earliest blade of the four was dated 1714 and the most recent was in the 1840's. The sword dated in the 1840's was a sharply curved short shamshir style blade, the other three blades were all earlier kilij blades. They all had copper scabbards / hilts, that had a silver wash with gold wash over the silver. All had hundreds pf coral and turquoise held in low quality made bezels. All four scabbards were about the same quality of craftsmanship which begs the question of was that craftsmanship of a very similar quality maintained over a 120 plus year span of time? Or were all these swords assembled in a shorter period of time from both older and new at the time blades. Whats your opinion? rand

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25th January 2008, 08:11 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Sorry I'm late folks - Hi Ariel and all: The koftgari I agree is a later addition as Rand said. I took a look at the pictures and the quality is more in keeping with that commonly coming out of India now. I think it may be that it is a restoration based on the remnents of what was originally there (I would hope anyway ) and if so I would call it a restoration. As restorers they may have had to re-cross hatch the area to have sharper grooves to "catch" the koftgari. This would of course not be true inlay but koftgari on the surface.

6th February 2008, 02:44 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Sorry Rand, i cannot tell. I havent handled any, and i personally dislike this overdecorated style. I know that the Sultans used to give swords and furs as presents, and i know that this happened in Crete in 1645, when the Sultan gave to his general 2 "valuable" swords as a reword for the first victories. (The war was to continue another 24 years...)