Sudanese Haladie?

Gonzalo G · 19th January 2008, 02:11 AM

On the other side, I think the presence of the haladie in Sudan must be dated before of the Mahdi rebellion, as Egerton made his studies about those weapons before that time. It could be related to the time of the construction of the Suez Canal, but I don´t know if the coolies from India bring that kind of influences to Africa, or the influences came from another path. This only speculation, but I dont know the reach and level of all the indian people who went to that construction. I can only be sure of the presence of the most basic level of handworkers. Of course, I can be wrong, and if somebody has better information, please feel free to post.

Neverthless, and as Jim noted to me, "Egerton wrote in 1880, prior to the fall of Khartoum, but did revise his catalog some years later after British campaigns in the Sudan and in fact those revisions do include certain Sudanese weapons." So, the question still remains open: from what time period, and from what means, the indian influence began to be felt in the Sudan arsenal, and the first haladies begin to appear?

My best regards

Gonzalo

Jens Nordlunde · 19th January 2008, 02:33 PM

Gonzalo,

The maru is inscribed on both sides of the two blades, but unfortunately most is worn off. However the year is still there 1221 (1806 AD).

Please give Andreas my regards.

Jens

Tim Simmons · 19th January 2008, 03:17 PM

Gonzalo, this thread gives me the opportunity to show two of my most inspiring pieces. Clearly there is Indo-Persian link or perhaps a Persian-Indo-Islam link as the triangular stiletto blade covered in script appears to be found from the Sudan to Indonesia. I think the link is more to do with Islam as the Indian decoration is quite different with inlays, depictions of people and on the whole floral in sentiment.
There have been examples of the "Islamic" stiletto shown in other topics. The stiletto has loose form of this script based decoration like the example you show. The axe shown here has a more tight version which frames the Arabic script most successfully, the hook is decorated in the same manner. The halft and the spear point are done in a more loose version.

Gonzalo G · 20th January 2008, 04:52 AM

Jens, thank you very much for your data and picture. I will give your regards to Andreas, and mention the help you gave me.

Tim, yours is a relevant contribution to the study of this influencues, documented in this pictures. I appreciate your participation. Thank you.
All the best

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2008, 07:19 AM

Tim, thank you for posting these outstanding Sudanese examples that show key differences in the type of Islamic script and decorative motif.
The stiletto seems relatively unrepresented in most Sudanese weapons groupings I have seen, and this is a great example that illustrates that there are more weapons than the standard forms shown.

The decoration on the axe recalls that seen on Mamluk weapons and material culture, and it would seem that perhaps a great deal of influence from the Mamluks found its way into the Sudan prior to the Mahdiyya. The crescent shaped head on the axe as well as the spear head atop is somewhat similar to forms from 18th century Malabar regions in India (Stone, fig.101, #6), and the curious recurved spike in place of the poll at the back seems of Indian influence also. As has been noted it is difficult to determine with any certainty the routing and sequence of such diffusion of influences, however the similarities in the elements of the weapon reflect reasonable probabilities.

The use of crocodile hide and sometimes, as seen on the stiletto, the foot of a crocodile on hilts is something that appears to have been quite characteristic in the Sudan in weapons. Over the years there have been many discussions concerning this practice, and often there have been the usual suggestions that these weapons were fabricated for the tourist trade. I do not feel this is the case, and examples shown provenanced from the Mahdist period and likely prior seem to have applied crocodile hides to weapons as highly symbolic, with these reptilians both feared and revered for thier power. This was once expressed to me by a gentleman who was of the Fur, and from Darfur. Most Darfur kaskaras I have seen carry a strip of crocodile on the grip of the hilt.

Returning to the original weapon posted here, the haladie. It seems that discussions in some cases have considered that in the Sudan, these may have been considered in a more ceremonial sense. In some material it was further suggested that the dual blades may have corresponded to that characteristic of Dhu'l Faqar, even though this is clearly not a sword, but may have represented the concept.
As mentioned, the Mamluk influence seems well established, and in thier art they often used ivory, as well as the intricate Islamic motif in the metalwork. Since these haladies had white (bone) handles, this may correspond to the use of ivory, and the thuluth represented the intricate motif seen in the metalwork.
I have seen Sudanese 'alem' (huge polearm spearheads used as standards) which carried such intricate metalwork as seen on the axe posted, and chiseled representation of an Islamic ewer.

It would seem that while influences of a number of weapon forms in the Sudan most probably arrived via Arab trade from the Malabar coast, the decorative influences of Mamluk weaponry may have had influence in degree on thier aesthetics and symbolism.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd January 2008, 01:27 PM

Gonzalo,

You must remember that trade between India, Arabia, Africa and the Mediterranean was rather intense from the second century AD, if not before, both by caravan and by sea – just as the trade between India and SEA are was.

This leads to that weapons from one country can have been adopted as they were, or modified to the ‘new’ market.

The only Indian weapon, which as not adopted by others, was the katar, which is strange, as it is a very powerful weapon. Blade were sold, and copied in the different countries, but there is one thing which does not seem to have been copied, and that are the hilt, although it is difficult to be quite sure with the very early types.

Jens

katana · 22nd January 2008, 02:05 PM

I have not been able to find Arabic versions of the haladie or the mace that I posted. Has anyone seen or knows of such versions.....if there are none...perhaps there was a more direct link between India and the Sudan.

Perhaps it was slaves that was one of the main commodities of the Arabic trading routes. Indians taken to the Sudan

Arab slave trading was rife and the Sudan was a good market to sell. Perhaps some of these slaves brought the haladie design with them

Bearing in mind that the value of a slave was not just physical health but skills or knowledge they pocessed.

19th January 2008, 02:11 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	On the other side, I think the presence of the haladie in Sudan must be dated before of the Mahdi rebellion, as Egerton made his studies about those weapons before that time. It could be related to the time of the construction of the Suez Canal, but I don´t know if the coolies from India bring that kind of influences to Africa, or the influences came from another path. This only speculation, but I dont know the reach and level of all the indian people who went to that construction. I can only be sure of the presence of the most basic level of handworkers. Of course, I can be wrong, and if somebody has better information, please feel free to post. Neverthless, and as Jim noted to me, "Egerton wrote in 1880, prior to the fall of Khartoum, but did revise his catalog some years later after British campaigns in the Sudan and in fact those revisions do include certain Sudanese weapons." So, the question still remains open: from what time period, and from what means, the indian influence began to be felt in the Sudan arsenal, and the first haladies begin to appear? My best regards Gonzalo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 19th January 2008 at 08:09 AM.

19th January 2008, 02:33 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gonzalo, The maru is inscribed on both sides of the two blades, but unfortunately most is worn off. However the year is still there 1221 (1806 AD). Please give Andreas my regards. Jens Attached Images

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19th January 2008, 03:17 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Gonzalo, this thread gives me the opportunity to show two of my most inspiring pieces. Clearly there is Indo-Persian link or perhaps a Persian-Indo-Islam link as the triangular stiletto blade covered in script appears to be found from the Sudan to Indonesia. I think the link is more to do with Islam as the Indian decoration is quite different with inlays, depictions of people and on the whole floral in sentiment. There have been examples of the "Islamic" stiletto shown in other topics. The stiletto has loose form of this script based decoration like the example you show. The axe shown here has a more tight version which frames the Arabic script most successfully, the hook is decorated in the same manner. The halft and the spear point are done in a more loose version.

20th January 2008, 04:52 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jens, thank you very much for your data and picture. I will give your regards to Andreas, and mention the help you gave me. Tim, yours is a relevant contribution to the study of this influencues, documented in this pictures. I appreciate your participation. Thank you. All the best Gonzalo

20th January 2008, 07:19 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Tim, thank you for posting these outstanding Sudanese examples that show key differences in the type of Islamic script and decorative motif. The stiletto seems relatively unrepresented in most Sudanese weapons groupings I have seen, and this is a great example that illustrates that there are more weapons than the standard forms shown. The decoration on the axe recalls that seen on Mamluk weapons and material culture, and it would seem that perhaps a great deal of influence from the Mamluks found its way into the Sudan prior to the Mahdiyya. The crescent shaped head on the axe as well as the spear head atop is somewhat similar to forms from 18th century Malabar regions in India (Stone, fig.101, #6), and the curious recurved spike in place of the poll at the back seems of Indian influence also. As has been noted it is difficult to determine with any certainty the routing and sequence of such diffusion of influences, however the similarities in the elements of the weapon reflect reasonable probabilities. The use of crocodile hide and sometimes, as seen on the stiletto, the foot of a crocodile on hilts is something that appears to have been quite characteristic in the Sudan in weapons. Over the years there have been many discussions concerning this practice, and often there have been the usual suggestions that these weapons were fabricated for the tourist trade. I do not feel this is the case, and examples shown provenanced from the Mahdist period and likely prior seem to have applied crocodile hides to weapons as highly symbolic, with these reptilians both feared and revered for thier power. This was once expressed to me by a gentleman who was of the Fur, and from Darfur. Most Darfur kaskaras I have seen carry a strip of crocodile on the grip of the hilt. Returning to the original weapon posted here, the haladie. It seems that discussions in some cases have considered that in the Sudan, these may have been considered in a more ceremonial sense. In some material it was further suggested that the dual blades may have corresponded to that characteristic of Dhu'l Faqar, even though this is clearly not a sword, but may have represented the concept. As mentioned, the Mamluk influence seems well established, and in thier art they often used ivory, as well as the intricate Islamic motif in the metalwork. Since these haladies had white (bone) handles, this may correspond to the use of ivory, and the thuluth represented the intricate motif seen in the metalwork. I have seen Sudanese 'alem' (huge polearm spearheads used as standards) which carried such intricate metalwork as seen on the axe posted, and chiseled representation of an Islamic ewer. It would seem that while influences of a number of weapon forms in the Sudan most probably arrived via Arab trade from the Malabar coast, the decorative influences of Mamluk weaponry may have had influence in degree on thier aesthetics and symbolism. Best regards, Jim

22nd January 2008, 01:27 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gonzalo, You must remember that trade between India, Arabia, Africa and the Mediterranean was rather intense from the second century AD, if not before, both by caravan and by sea – just as the trade between India and SEA are was. This leads to that weapons from one country can have been adopted as they were, or modified to the ‘new’ market. The only Indian weapon, which as not adopted by others, was the katar, which is strange, as it is a very powerful weapon. Blade were sold, and copied in the different countries, but there is one thing which does not seem to have been copied, and that are the hilt, although it is difficult to be quite sure with the very early types. Jens

22nd January 2008, 02:05 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I have not been able to find Arabic versions of the haladie or the mace that I posted. Has anyone seen or knows of such versions.....if there are none...perhaps there was a more direct link between India and the Sudan. Perhaps it was slaves that was one of the main commodities of the Arabic trading routes. Indians taken to the Sudan Arab slave trading was rife and the Sudan was a good market to sell. Perhaps some of these slaves brought the haladie design with them Bearing in mind that the value of a slave was not just physical health but skills or knowledge they pocessed.