Origins of Gorda/Gurda

[Marc]

To be sincere, for my experience, Ariel's hypothesis holds far more water than any of the others. First of all, it's well-formulated, uses the data available and works with factors known to have had similar influences in other fields (names given to import products based in those they had in their place of origin. It happens even today). Theories regarding "names" or "marks" on weapons have an undeniable tendency to fall in the direction of what any bazaar seller would instantly recognize as "the coolness factor". You know how this goes, any notch on the handle of a Colt Army must be a man gone down, never a sign of mistreatment. I also tend to be quite sceptic about these stories, and although some of them are true, these tend to be not only somewhat obvious but normally they're also verifiable via some independent sources.

Also, the kind of explanation Ariel's putting forth is also mirrored in other similar cases, like the Canary Islands knife "naife" or the Filipino "punal".

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly right Marc! The lore of weapons is rich with vernacular terms that have become associated with particular weapon forms, and it often becomes difficult to separate them even when facts are discovered that contradict the established use.
The nim'cha term applied to full length swords, the term claymore used to describe Scottish basket hilts, the term katar used to describe what is properly termed jemadhar, etc.etc. Most are typically transliteration and semantics, and in many cases writers and adventurers embellished thier work with colorful stories about the weapons.
The note on the notches on the handles of guns is coincidentally something I had just noted on the thread on the marking of weapons, and of course in reality, gunfighters did not place notches on their gun grips.

As has been noted, the lore is great for entertainment, but for our purposes often confounding.

All very best regards,
Jim

[S.Al-Anizi]

Hi All!

Interesting topic. Strange thing is that this word has also been passed to Arabic, specifically the Nejdi dialect, in which it is used to name a straight bladed sword, Gurda.

[ariel]

That's interesting!
original Arabian sword were straight, as everybody knows.
So, here are my questions:
- Is this name recent ? How old?
-does Gurda refer to a specific straight sword or to the class in general?
- Any other characteristics ( markings?) of Gurda?
-Any connection with European blades?

[ariel]

Yet another tantalizing hint: Elgood mentions Burton's note of Western Arabian swords with European blades called Majar ( Hungarian).

[Kiziria]

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Kiziria

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

Welcome to the forums Kiziria .

[ariel]

Another Forum is having a thread initiated by a Caucasian buff ( ); the gist is that the origin of Caucasian blades locally dubbed " David Peruli" ( or, as some sources call it, "davitperuli") both sounding rather "Georgian", is in fact a mispronounciation of David Ferrara, an Italian master whose blades were popular in the area in the 17-18th centuries.
Another example of Korda/Gorda?

[Montino Bourbon]

furnish a link to the other forum, please? is that allowed?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Another Forum is having a thread initiated by a Caucasian buff ( ); the gist is that the origin of Caucasian blades locally dubbed " David Peruli" ( or, as some sources call it, "davitperuli") both sounding rather "Georgian", is in fact a mispronounciation of David Ferrara, an Italian master whose blades were popular in the area in the 17-18th centuries.
Another example of Korda/Gorda?

This was interesting, and it adds further mystery to the long standing arms conundrum of 'Andrea Ferrara'.
Ariel noted in his query concerning 'gurda', "was it a 'class' of sword?", which has proven also to be key in the Andrea Ferrara situation.

Reviewing notes as well as the outstanding reference on Italian edged weapons, "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (L.Boccia & E.Coelho, Milan, 1975), it seems, as mentioned often, that there is considerable doubt that any blademaker named Andrea Ferrara ever actually existed. Even blades with this marking presented in the authoritative reference by Boccia & Coelho are referenced with question marks.
It seems that listings of nearly all significant Italian blademakers and the comprehensive records kept by the guilds have enabled arms historians to establish actual addresses and locations of virtually all of these makers. That is not the case with the Ferrara's, where no such locations have been found. It is also interesting that the 'name' inscribed in the blades, even for one in Boccia & Coelho (op.cit. p.384 #481) the name is above and below, with each encapsulated at either end, contrary to the continuum of name and surname.

Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs, in his remarkable article "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (J.A.A.S. Vol.V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92), also brings attention to the 'Ferrara' dilemma. He notes personal correspondence from Sir James Mann in 1958 stating "...I have never seen any sword which could creditably be attributed to Andrea dei Ferari of Belluno". Mann continues by noting, "...the Baron de Cosson many years ago pointed out that the name Andrea Ferrara is used on blades just the same as found on blades of certain kinds, i.e. Andrea Ferara on broad blades; Sahagun on a different kind of broad blade; Tomas Ayala on rapier blades, in fact the names were each a kind of brand for a certain type of sword".
Further, he notes that Calomarde in his "Historia Politica de Aragon" mentions an Andres Ferrara working in Saragossa, so the Solingen smiths using the name so freely probably were thinking of a Spaniard rather than an Italian. It is well known the Solingen smiths used Spanish names consistantly on thier export blades.

It has been suggested that the Latin term for iron (=ferrum) may be the root of the name, and that 'andrew', an early colloquial term for 'true' or 'good' may correspond to 'andrea'. The term 'andrea ferara' may then be applied as a quality mark, just as the German 'eisenhauer' (=iron cutter).
There is also the Italian place Ferrara, which may associate.

The Caucasian term (rather than name) 'David Peruli' may be considered in the same parlance mentioned here. I recall discussions with the author of an important book on Caucasian weapons years ago, in which I was told the term 'pranguli' was often applied to a particular type of straight bladed Khevsur sword. It is tempting to consider the apparant similarity of 'pranguli' and 'peruli' which may support this perspective.

I thought this material might prove of interest with regard to the terminology associated with sword blades.