Figural Dagger - Esmeralda?

katana · 6th December 2007, 06:57 PM

Hi Bill,
Assuming the orientation of the tiles is deliberate, there could be an explanation....but only based on conjecture.

Throughout the ages, man has viewed 'weather' as an act of God or the Gods. Ever since arable farming, the weather affected the crops....creating 'bumper' harvest .... or a state of famine and starvation. The weather litrally was a matter of 'life or death' and as man has no control of this, it was considered 'devine intervention. Even today, extreme weather damage is considered an 'act of God' in many Insurance policies.

The roof of a building has always been seen as a 'protective' symbol, a shelter from the 'elements'. The overlapping tiles allow 'water run off' however with the tiles upside down ....water would flow into the building ... in effect the tiles would be useless in their 'protection'.

"..........One of the great dramatic moments in Victor Hugo’s novel Notre-Dame de Paris comes when Quasimodo snatches the gypsy Esmeralda from the hands of her would-be executioners and escapes with her into the great church of Notre-Dame:
‘The people, fond of daring deeds, followed him with their eyes through the dark nave, regretting that he had so quickly withdrawn himself from their acclamations. Suddenly he was seen again at one end of the gallery of the kings of France. He ran along it like a frenzied person, lifting his prize in his arms and shouting, “Sanctuary!” The crowd again burst forth with applause. When he had crossed the gallery, he plunged again into the interior of the church. A minute later, he reappeared on the upper platform, still carrying the gypsy in his arms, still running madly along, still crying, “Sanctuary!” And the crowd applauded again. At last he made a third appearance atop the tower of the great bell. There he seemed to show proudly to the whole city her whom he had saved, and his thundering voice, that voice which was heard so rarely, and which he had never heard, repeated three times with frenzy, even to the clouds, “Sanctuary! Sanctuary! Sanctuary!”’(1)
This moment is equally striking in the best-known film adaptation of the story, The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1939) starring Charles Laughton.(2)

What was ‘sanctuary’ and why was it held inviolable? In ancient Egypt the temples of Osiris and Amon offered the right of sanctuary. In ancient Greece all temples enjoyed this privilege, and certain of them, like the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, were known throughout the Mediterranean as a haven for fugitives. In ancient Rome, sanctuary was often sought by runaway slaves.

Emperor Constantine I is said to have given Christian churches the right of sanctuary. Asylum was originally confined to the church itself, but later its limits were extended to include the precincts and occasionally a larger area marked by ‘sanctuary crosses’. In England in Norman times there were two kinds of sanctuary, one belonging to every church by prescription and the other by special royal charter. The latter was considered much safer. A fugitive convicted of a felony and taking sanctuary was afforded protection from 30 to 40 days, after which he had to leave the kingdom and take an oath not to return without the king’s permission.

During the Middle Ages, the period in which Notre-Dame de Paris is set, sanctuary served as a refuge for persons fleeing from violence or the penalties of the law. To injure a person in sanctuary or to remove him or her forcibly was considered sacrilegious. Violations were punishable by fines or excommunication. In some cases there was a stone seat within the church, called the ‘frith-stool’, which the seeker of sanctuary had to reach in order to establish a claim to protection. More commonly, there was a large ring or knocker on the church door, holding on to which gave the right of asylum....."

On that basis, it could mean that 'Notre Dame' was unable to protect Esmeralda when she sought sanctuary within its walls ........as the Court of Parliament later voted to strip her of her sanctuary and send her to the gallows , removing her by force (which would have been considered sacrilegious)
She escapes Notre Dame ......but is later captured and hung.

Another possibility is that the tiles are a 'device' to show that the 'church' on the scabbard ...should indeed be viewed as upside down

1. Which could be symbollic of Esmeralda in opposition to the seemily corrupt establishment of the church (clergy)

2. That the conception of the knife was 'anti church' / anti Catholism

3. Or , dare I say it.....possibly 'satanic'

I am sure there are a number of other possibillities or explainations, and I am assuming that the tile 'orientation' was deliberate.....but, equally it could have been a 'silly' mistake.

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2007, 07:08 PM

There are 9 levels. Number 2 is for the Lustfull

http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/

katana · 6th December 2007, 07:16 PM

SORRY COULDN'T RESIST THIS

...a little light relief

"Chaz says ......these new washboard's are so much better ...than the ones my ancestor's had to use"

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2007, 08:06 PM

This is good.
http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/utopia/index2.html

katana · 6th December 2007, 08:47 PM

Now seriously...

What is the definition of a true Satanic Dagger ? AFAIK... I suppose the only true answer is a dagger that has been used in a satanic rite.
Although this is regarding Sikh weapons the analogy is the same....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As one Sikh I was speaking with described when asked how to properly identify a Sikh sword..."if the sword was used by a Sikh, then any sword is a Sikh sword"!
Jim

Has there ever been provenance with any examples of 'Satanic Dagger' to support its use and history ?

Many of the 'motifs' and designs on Satanic daggers are easily recognisable as symbolising 'death'. Isn't that what a dagger is for.....to stab and kill. Surely all functional edged weapons where designed to take life?

Couldn't a dagger decorated with skulls, skeletons, demons etc just mean.... with this knife I can take your life and send you, my enemy, to hell

Bearing in mind many old churches, graveyards and many works of Art also, carries the symbolism of skull, demons etc in their architecture, gravestones, statues and paintings (and are not satanic.)

Death, 'the great adventure' is a reminder of our mortality, the circle of life 'completed'. The life expecancy of our ancestors were much less than ours, death was expected around 'each corner', to cope....our ancestors faced 'death' head on, it seems that they, to diminish the fear, embraced 'death' as the 'ultimate truth' but had religion that could redeem them so, they could live in the 'after life' whether that be Valhalla or Heaven or the Elysian Fields.

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." Peter Pan (JM Barrie)

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2007, 09:05 PM

Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint.

Rick · 6th December 2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint.

Ding ding ding !
We have a Winner !!

spiral · 6th December 2007, 10:53 PM

And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping!

spiral

Bill M · 7th December 2007, 01:46 AM

Gee, I thought it was the sound of no hands clapping.

Andrew · 7th December 2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping!

spiral

A very Zen comment, Spiral.

http://www.io.com/~snewton/zen/onehand.html

6th December 2007, 07:16 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	SORRY COULDN'T RESIST THIS ...a little light relief "Chaz says ......these new washboard's are so much better ...than the ones my ancestor's had to use" Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 6th December 2007 at 07:55 PM.

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6th December 2007, 06:57 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Bill, Assuming the orientation of the tiles is deliberate, there could be an explanation....but only based on conjecture. Throughout the ages, man has viewed 'weather' as an act of God or the Gods. Ever since arable farming, the weather affected the crops....creating 'bumper' harvest .... or a state of famine and starvation. The weather litrally was a matter of 'life or death' and as man has no control of this, it was considered 'devine intervention. Even today, extreme weather damage is considered an 'act of God' in many Insurance policies. The roof of a building has always been seen as a 'protective' symbol, a shelter from the 'elements'. The overlapping tiles allow 'water run off' however with the tiles upside down ....water would flow into the building ... in effect the tiles would be useless in their 'protection'. "..........One of the great dramatic moments in Victor Hugo’s novel Notre-Dame de Paris comes when Quasimodo snatches the gypsy Esmeralda from the hands of her would-be executioners and escapes with her into the great church of Notre-Dame: ‘The people, fond of daring deeds, followed him with their eyes through the dark nave, regretting that he had so quickly withdrawn himself from their acclamations. Suddenly he was seen again at one end of the gallery of the kings of France. He ran along it like a frenzied person, lifting his prize in his arms and shouting, “Sanctuary!” The crowd again burst forth with applause. When he had crossed the gallery, he plunged again into the interior of the church. A minute later, he reappeared on the upper platform, still carrying the gypsy in his arms, still running madly along, still crying, “Sanctuary!” And the crowd applauded again. At last he made a third appearance atop the tower of the great bell. There he seemed to show proudly to the whole city her whom he had saved, and his thundering voice, that voice which was heard so rarely, and which he had never heard, repeated three times with frenzy, even to the clouds, “Sanctuary! Sanctuary! Sanctuary!”’(1) This moment is equally striking in the best-known film adaptation of the story, The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1939) starring Charles Laughton.(2) What was ‘sanctuary’ and why was it held inviolable? In ancient Egypt the temples of Osiris and Amon offered the right of sanctuary. In ancient Greece all temples enjoyed this privilege, and certain of them, like the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, were known throughout the Mediterranean as a haven for fugitives. In ancient Rome, sanctuary was often sought by runaway slaves. Emperor Constantine I is said to have given Christian churches the right of sanctuary. Asylum was originally confined to the church itself, but later its limits were extended to include the precincts and occasionally a larger area marked by ‘sanctuary crosses’. In England in Norman times there were two kinds of sanctuary, one belonging to every church by prescription and the other by special royal charter. The latter was considered much safer. A fugitive convicted of a felony and taking sanctuary was afforded protection from 30 to 40 days, after which he had to leave the kingdom and take an oath not to return without the king’s permission. During the Middle Ages, the period in which Notre-Dame de Paris is set, sanctuary served as a refuge for persons fleeing from violence or the penalties of the law. To injure a person in sanctuary or to remove him or her forcibly was considered sacrilegious. Violations were punishable by fines or excommunication. In some cases there was a stone seat within the church, called the ‘frith-stool’, which the seeker of sanctuary had to reach in order to establish a claim to protection. More commonly, there was a large ring or knocker on the church door, holding on to which gave the right of asylum....." On that basis, it could mean that 'Notre Dame' was unable to protect Esmeralda when she sought sanctuary within its walls ........as the Court of Parliament later voted to strip her of her sanctuary and send her to the gallows , removing her by force (which would have been considered sacrilegious) She escapes Notre Dame ......but is later captured and hung. Another possibility is that the tiles are a 'device' to show that the 'church' on the scabbard ...should indeed be viewed as upside down 1. Which could be symbollic of Esmeralda in opposition to the seemily corrupt establishment of the church (clergy) 2. That the conception of the knife was 'anti church' / anti Catholism 3. Or , dare I say it.....possibly 'satanic' I am sure there are a number of other possibillities or explainations, and I am assuming that the tile 'orientation' was deliberate.....but, equally it could have been a 'silly' mistake. Regards David

6th December 2007, 07:08 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	There are 9 levels. Number 2 is for the Lustfull http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/

6th December 2007, 08:06 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This is good. http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/utopia/index2.html

6th December 2007, 09:05 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint.

6th December 2007, 10:53 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping! spiral

7th December 2007, 01:46 AM	#9
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Gee, I thought it was the sound of no hands clapping.