Very Old Firangi with Rapier blade in need of restoration.

[olikara]

David, Jens,

Isn't the 'sword' in the middle of the 3 on display similar to the one you have shown?

This is from the Arms and Armour section at the local museum here in Shimoga, South India.

Olikara

[Jens Nordlunde]

Olikara,
Its an interesting picture, and yes, I think it must be with a rapier blade. I don't know what the blade I shower is called in English, but in German it is called a Panzersticker - or something along this line. These blades are really rare, just imagine to go to war with a blade which is dull, really dull, it can only be used for thrusting. Unless the one using it had a backup armed with a choise of swords, so swords could be changed during the fight.
Jens

[katana]

Wow, so many postings ...in a short period of time.


So bear with me as I try to address all the questions and comments.....

Hi Richard, nice to hear from you

As to your comments ..and Jens (Hi Jens) regarding the Pata. I didn't explain myself properly, I should have said '...a number of Pata...'

My opinion on the Pata is based on 'engineering criteria'. If you look at the majority of the 'fixing points' of the blade to the gauntlet they seem 'weak'. A cutting blade would, during combat, be likely to strike armour, a shield or another blade. The blade, primarily would 'take the impact' and assuming it was strong/resilient enough, would not break. This impact stress would then be transferred to the 'fixing point'. As you can see on Fernando's and Bill's Patas .....compared to a Khanda and my Firangi they are 'weaker'. If the blade were to be lost in battle ....the metal gauntlet left would not inspire my 'survival chances'. I do believe the Pata could be used to cut/slash but feel that stabbing would be a 'safer' technique.

I have never heard of the 'Lime demonstration' but strangely and coincidently I, using this Firangi to cut two 'upright' banana's....it left both halves on top of each other !!! I was curious as to how the blade would cut, and didn't want to damage the blade with a more worthy target The sword was easily controlled and its 'action' is very quick ... a 'joy' to play with ...well 'play' is inaccurate...but it is 'fun'.

The Rapier bladed Firangi has its blade firmly fixed and supported by the 'inverted T plates', spreading the 'load/stress' if used in a cutting action. To reinforce this further, the tang of the blade continues through the hilt and would have terminated at the pommel spike (had it been there). A strong fixing indeed, as if this was used to 'cut' as well as 'stab'. (remembering that the blade is double edged from tip to the 'mounting' plates.

This strongly suggests that the blade was adapted, AFAIK all 'true' European Rapier blades had this feature.

Jens thank you for showing this sword, the 'blade' is similar to 'later' Rapier 'blades', used, as this one, to stab...from long range. A very interesting sword, it suggests to me that the advantage of a 'long range' thrusting weapon was 'known' by the Indian sword designers. Which could add 'weight' to the possibility that re-hilted Rapier blades were used differently to the Rapier.

Hi Olikara,
thank you very much for posting the picture , do you have any information about the middle Firangi ?

It would seem strange to have a sword possibly attributable to a European 'invader', exhibited with other Indian swords


This is getting very interesting.....thank you

Kind Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

David, I have been rereading your posts of late, and very much enjoy your detailed and well explained perceptions on the rapier, fencing as well as possible applications in India! Extremely well written and primarily right on target, and the exception with the use of the pata has been noted and discussed. I think for the pata, it would depend on which region of India and which tribal group was using them would determine more on the manner of use. As noted, many of the highly flexed and more spatulate point blades were of course for slashing cuts. I very much like the graphics you have used to demonstrate the construction alignment suggesting probable manners of use.

What you have noted on the use of the rapier is impressively well said, and as you have noted, there were indeed a great deal of 'theatrics' involved with the swordplay of the rapier. This of course carried itself perfectly into Hollywood, where such combat was exaggerated profoundly. I recall many years ago in my very limited exposure to fencing, where courses in 'stage combat' were specifically designed for this. As you have explained, actual combat with the rapier was based on feints, distraction and as best exemplified in the complexities of Destreza, many of these moves were composed with geometric and mathematical precision.
Just as in the fabled "Wild West" ,one having actually been there would have likely been disappointed by actual conflicts, which were primarily simple and mundane events rather than the dramatic gunfights in movies, the duels and sword combat with these weapons was mostly much the same. It is of course the writers and poets that embellish such matters, and while we are richer for it in our entertainment and literature, it does little for serious study of these weapons.

The interesting thrusting weapon that Jens has brought up with the mail piercing blade brings up some compelling thoughts on this firangi, and it does seem plausible the rapier blade was mounted in firangi hilt much in the same manner as the tulwar hilt. As Olikara has added the example in the Indian museum, it seems that the form was decidely present. Although the khanda hilt typically is associated with Mahratta and eventually Rajput and Sikh use, these blades could well have been intended for the penetration action suggested, as more probably with the Rajputs who did employ such thrusting. This is not to say the Mahrattas might not have adapted to combat techniques as required though.

The narrow thrusting blades used in Europe that Jens has mentioned were termed as he has noted in German forms, and more commonly known elsewhere as the 'estoc', and these were often carried under the horsemans leg scabbarded from the saddle. These were long blades, and used for combat on foot as were the heavier pallasches often carried in the same manner (see Rembrandts "Polish Rider" painting).
While Muslim warriors typically used sabres with drawcut and slashing following the development of the sabre and distinctly disfavored the thrust, examples of Islamic rapiers known as the 'mec' did exist (see Yucel).

I think we can presume here that the idea of use of this firangi by a European individual no longer seems plausible, and that it was indeed intended for use by someone there such as noted. While it has been well shown that these thin blades were apparantly intended for use in combat, it remains that an official could well have wished to emulate the weapons seen worn by the Europeans. Not all individuals would have required elaborate decoration nor been able to afford it, such as civil officials etc. not necessarily of station to appear in court atmosphere.

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi, may i connect the complicometer ?

Although the usual procedure is to give questions an explanation based on indexized patterns, things aren't necessarily only "black or white"; i think we all agree with that.

Allright, this piece might have not belonged to an European, with a taste for Indian stuff, but it could have been the other way round; a local person with a sword setup of European style, a phenomenum often observed in antiquity, in the area of weaponry ... at least. This not forcingly an actual fact, but just in thesis.

By the same order of ideas, the weapon doesn't have to be perfectly functional, to be a weapon. I bet several specimens developed were not fully efective, at least according to the "catalogue". There must have been lots of atypical pieces, surely more on the civilian side. I guess many a civilian would not dream going to school to learn how to hit someone; he would just imagine that a piece was to strike in an unstudyed single blow, no manouvres involved. No fighting art envolved, just having something to do the job at once.

Looking at the "estoc" piece shown by Jens ... decidedly a thrusting weapon, yet with the type of hilt giving the idea of usual conceptual slashing pourpose.

Concerning the rapier fencing technique, the fact that, in real practice, it wasn't used the Hollywood way, it doesn't avoid the fact that a specific schooled training was needed to use it ... i mean efectively use it.

Am i wrong if i say that you can slash with less training than you can thrust ?
Aren't thrusting moves more subtle and subject to the proper moment ?

David, you got me lost with the Goa event. This place was taken in 1510, the rapier wasn't yet used ... or do i miss something?

Also probably the pata wasn't a sword of unique handling technique. We know it was used by elite cavalry, as well as by monks afoot. If we go by the catalogue, we can imagine the first using it for slashing the infants and the late using it for thrusting the horsemen. Probably the different types of blades gave them the respectve logic; or then again there would be hybrid situations.

Definitely long lengthy blades served to create a handicap to the opponent, in terms of reach. This acomodates the idea that such blades would be, or also be, for thrusting. I notice that Daehnhardt hardly puts a blade as being exclusively for cutting or thrusting; he prefers to talk percentages.

I must have said such amount of BS that i won't even sign this posting .

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

By the same order of ideas, the weapon doesn't have to be perfectly functional, to be a weapon. I bet several specimens developed were not fully efective, at least according to the "catalogue". There must have been lots of atypical pieces, surely more on the civilian side. I guess many a civilian would not dream going to school to learn how to hit someone; he would just imagine that a piece was to strike in an unstudyed single blow, no manouvres involved. No fighting art envolved, just having something to do the job at once.

Looking at the "estoc" piece shown by Jens ... decidedly a thrusting weapon, yet with the type of hilt giving the idea of usual conceptual slashing pourpose.

Concerning the rapier fencing technique, the fact that, in real practice, it wasn't used the Hollywood way, it doesn't avoid the fact that a specific schooled training was needed to use it ... i mean efectively use it.

Am i wrong if i say that you can slash with less training than you can thrust ?
Aren't thrusting moves more subtle and subject to the proper moment ?

David, you got me lost with the Goa event. This place was taken in 1510, the rapier wasn't yet used ... or do i miss something?

I must have said such amount of BS that i won't even sign this posting .

Hi Fernando,
I agree that not all weapons created were perfectly functional, by which I mean, an 'all rounder' weapon that can deal with all situations would be impossible. Weapons 'evolve' and some become more 'specialised', suited to a limited number of tasks/situations. This type of weapon tends to become obsolete as battle conditions/situations change and its use no longer 'required'.

I believe that the early Rapiers were designed very long bladed so as to be able to keep your assailants at a distance (as most other swords available were shorter) The Rapier (in Europe) became popular, very quickly and as far as I can tell the need for skill training occurred because of the increased likelihood of assailants armed with Rapiers ....in effect the blade 'reach' advantage was lost.

The excellent example of the "estoc" sword shown by Jens has a Tulwar hilt and probably fixed by resin. I feel, that it was a matter of convenience, it probably took minutes to fix the blade .... and Tulwar hilts were plentiful.
In Stones 'A Glossary.....Arms and Armour...' there are various examples of Indo Persian maces fixed to Tulwar hilts.
If the Rapier blade had been Tulwar hilted, I would agree that it probably was 'experimental' for the same reasons.

However, this Firangi has a Khanda styled hilt, but is smaller. The hilt is not a modified one, it is constructed for the sole purpose of fixing a narrow blade. The domed pommel area is smaller than the Khanda's I have seen. This allows more wrist movement, essential to a sword of this type. I believe that these hilts were made specifically for Rapier blades, and if I am correct...this sword had gone beyond the 'experimental stage'.

As the Firagi 'rapier' blades, (on the ones I have seen) are double edge for their entire length, I am not so certain that the technique used was the same as the Europeans (most Rapiers were not edge 'sharp' full length, some had approx. 1/3 from the tip sharpened......one of the main reasons was to prevent your assailant 'grabbing your blade')

Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly, I am not suggesting that the Portuguese had invaded with Rapiers in their arsenal. I meant that the Portuguese were well established in the Region and with constant contact (trade shipping) with mother Portugal, new trends (such as the Rapier) would have been known/adopted quite quickly by the 'colonials'. Military action was needed to 'maintain' the colony and Rapiers would have been available to the Portuguese.

No Fernando, nothing you have said could be put in the category of 'Bovine Secretions'

Kind Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando and David, you guys are presenting some fabulous discourse here on this most interesting topic! What I enjoy most is this kind of reasoning using known historical data and considering the possibilities and options which may have developed variations in weapons. Every time I think I've just about got this pegged, you guys present completely outstanding observations and support for different possibilities!!! If this kind of analysis and discussion was attended to many weapons more often, I think many of the mysteries that remain unsolved might at least be better understood.
Nicely done guys, thank you!!!!