Greneng

Kiai Carita · 18th November 2007, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

.........
G'day Bram. Can I call you Bram, or Pak Bram, or Pak Kiai? Which would you prefer?

Howabout if I just call you Bram, and you can call me Alan? Lets drop the formalities.

If you like, Alan... I am interested in commenting on the mention of Ajisaka. Who was and why Ajisaka? My intuition is that Ajisaka is the personification of "the knowledge of the pillar(s)" similar to current Freemasonry, and is concerned with creating a just and peacful society.

Sorry to wander off the thread.

As for the greneng representing a map, well, old Jawa kings didn't seem to like or need maps much. They often did not have borders on the ground, and they considered owning people more important than territory.

One thing we must consider when thinking about how things became widely used, is the influence of charisma. If a God-King wants a greneng, all his subjects might want one too. When Panembahan Senapati died at his funeral cigarettes were served and from that day Jawa men smoked, court poets noted. So the use of greneng might be like that too, one day a King used it and the next day everyone wanted one. Why? Because of charisma.

Just my opinion...

Salam hangat,
Bram

A. G. Maisey · 18th November 2007, 12:13 PM

Aji Saka.
Bram, those two words are loaded.
Yes, we can extract "pillar of knowledge" from them, but we can extract other possibilities as well.
What we extract can depend upon what language the words were first used in. Did this legend originate when Old Javanese was in general use, or after Modern Javanese came into general usage?
We can extract "king" from "aji".
We can also extract "kaji" from "aji"---this is a known variation.
Saka?
Again the word can be interpreted in several ways.
However, "pillar of knowledge" is workable, and it could well have been intended in that way.
Possibly when it was first used the story-teller was playing with ideas that would be generated in the minds of his audience by a combination of sounds, and the supporting story. Pillar of knowledge could be used to generate the idea of knowledge coming from The Haj, by the unspoken reference to "kaji". The ideas of "king", and "pillar" could be interchangeable
There are a number of possibilities, my personal feeling is that this legend was born after Islamic penetration of Jawa and was perhaps used in propaganda. I don't like the parallel with Freemasonry much. I cannot see such a thing being a part of the supportive fabric, moreover, it is stretching belief just a little too far, but I have no doubt that the story was used as a teaching medium. You yourself know that these legends were not just for light amusement. They were not 15th century versions of TV soap operas.The story tellers in Javanese society were an informal----and perhaps sometimes a formal---mechanism of societal control.

The greneng flowing from imitation of royal preference?
Undoubtedly.
This would have come from the top, no doubt about that, but why?
And was it a personal royal preference, or by royal dictate?
Was it personalised to the ruler, or was it at the direction of the ruler, and in any case----why?

Emanuel · 18th November 2007, 05:09 PM

Greetings,

I have very little knowledge of keris, but I am able to look at it from a design point of view. The greneng seems to me like a fairly complex feature. Shaping the edge of an object in the form of letters is an involved thought process; one has to identify the possibility to shape the edge in an unconventional manner and then realize that a specific contour of that edge may be read as meaningful letters.

I have worked as a graphic designer, I aspired to become an architect, and I am currently following an urban planning profession, and in all of these I have always had a design process. To get to design E I have to go through A, B, C, D first. To get to a legible ron dha on the "tail" end of the ganja, I feel that a designer had to go through a number of illegible steps. I imagine that at first there was no greneng, no ron dha. Then there arose a deformation of the edge of the "tail" area, something uncommon. It may have been a physical need to stop an opponent's blade, or it may have been something else, possibly even accidental damage. My point is that designers realized that the edge deformation was pleasing or useful and could be shaped in a meaningful way, eventually to become the contour of letters, and eventually to acquire a mystical meaning. This must have happened in time and involving considerable trial and error.

I guess this is what David's initial question referred to; what was that initial deformation of the tail edge that prompted the design process that lead to a legible or meaningful greneng.

These are my thoughts and I have no way to support them.

Thank you all for a fascinating discourse.
Emanuel

Boedhi Adhitya · 21st November 2007, 12:41 AM

Thank you, Manolo, for your suggestion on the 'designing' aspect. There is, actually, a 'pre-formed' greneng called 'greneng wurung'. Wurung or durung means 'belum' in Bahasa and literally means 'not yet', 'unfinished'. In this case, it could be translated as 'unperfect greneng'. But this kind of greneng has it's own problems. It is very possible that this forms were caused by the worn-out blade. This form also, very likely, to be found on the lower quality blades. Thus, incapability of the maker should be taken account. But it is quite tempting to think that the greneng wurung is the predecessor of the full-shaped greneng.

David, as you suggest that we should find the cause in Hindu cultures, why don't you consider the kukri's cho ? This notch in the lower part of kukri has similar form with greneng/ ron dha, and it also has symbolic meaning(s) and 'lack of functionality' as a tool/weapon.

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/khukuri-history.html

Please note while I'm suggesting some relations between cho and greneng, I keep my opinion neutral regarding this relationship

kronckew · 21st November 2007, 07:03 AM

i also belong to the himalayan imports forum, where the cho/kaudi debate comes up frequently. a recent thread-> Linky

the conclusion is normally 'no one knows why they have one, or why other nepali weapons do not, they just do'.

they are now a religious and traditional inclusion on the kukuhri's such that it is not considered a kukuhri if it does not have one. the kami's normally bless the new kukhri's in a mass ceremony involving sacrifice, so they are serious.

kukuhri cho/kaudi also come in a closed style rather than the more common notch:
examples:

so, the blood dripper/blade catcher theory falls a bit flat with those variants.

rasdan · 21st November 2007, 01:17 PM

Just for fun, here's some results of direct "translation" of one language (or perhaps culture; in our case) to another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8gnLAvA3rM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCRl5vlMk1I

A. G. Maisey · 21st November 2007, 08:42 PM

Regarding the notch in a khukri blade.

What I might know about khuks could be written on the head of a pin, however, I do have a good friend who lives in Canada, and who, for the last 20 years or so, has been married to the daughter of a Nepalese Brahmin, who lives with them. Father in law was a professor of cultural studies at an Indian university, and my friend is a long-time student of the khukri, weapons culture in general, and Nepalese weaponry in particular. He is an intelligent man whose work involves logical investigation at a university level. He does not, to the best of my knowledge involve himself in internet forums and when I have raised this question with him he has indicated in a very forceful manner that he has no wish to use his time in this manner.

I asked him for his take on the notch in the blade of khuks. Here is his response:-

not one reason but a few.

the principle reason , which could be carved on stone,I was told by a nepalese of experience, not just a figured out theory, is to control blood flow, when chopping up people.

blood on the edge will flow along the edge to the notch then drips off the notch to the ground rather than running over the handle..

I tried it though with milk not blood and it works pretty well..

As well it forms a lock, when in scabbard bladedown and the notch helps lock it.,.

as well many people have told me it represents Mt kailas in tibet, where shiva is said to rest, so its religous symbol i.e. could be prayed to.

BluErf · 22nd March 2011, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Just for fun, here's some results of direct "translation" of one language (or perhaps culture; in our case) to another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8gnLAvA3rM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCRl5vlMk1I

Ahahaha, never had such a belly-splitting laugh in a long time.

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18th November 2007, 12:13 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,009	Aji Saka. Bram, those two words are loaded. Yes, we can extract "pillar of knowledge" from them, but we can extract other possibilities as well. What we extract can depend upon what language the words were first used in. Did this legend originate when Old Javanese was in general use, or after Modern Javanese came into general usage? We can extract "king" from "aji". We can also extract "kaji" from "aji"---this is a known variation. Saka? Again the word can be interpreted in several ways. However, "pillar of knowledge" is workable, and it could well have been intended in that way. Possibly when it was first used the story-teller was playing with ideas that would be generated in the minds of his audience by a combination of sounds, and the supporting story. Pillar of knowledge could be used to generate the idea of knowledge coming from The Haj, by the unspoken reference to "kaji". The ideas of "king", and "pillar" could be interchangeable There are a number of possibilities, my personal feeling is that this legend was born after Islamic penetration of Jawa and was perhaps used in propaganda. I don't like the parallel with Freemasonry much. I cannot see such a thing being a part of the supportive fabric, moreover, it is stretching belief just a little too far, but I have no doubt that the story was used as a teaching medium. You yourself know that these legends were not just for light amusement. They were not 15th century versions of TV soap operas.The story tellers in Javanese society were an informal----and perhaps sometimes a formal---mechanism of societal control. The greneng flowing from imitation of royal preference? Undoubtedly. This would have come from the top, no doubt about that, but why? And was it a personal royal preference, or by royal dictate? Was it personalised to the ruler, or was it at the direction of the ruler, and in any case----why?

18th November 2007, 05:09 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Greetings, I have very little knowledge of keris, but I am able to look at it from a design point of view. The greneng seems to me like a fairly complex feature. Shaping the edge of an object in the form of letters is an involved thought process; one has to identify the possibility to shape the edge in an unconventional manner and then realize that a specific contour of that edge may be read as meaningful letters. I have worked as a graphic designer, I aspired to become an architect, and I am currently following an urban planning profession, and in all of these I have always had a design process. To get to design E I have to go through A, B, C, D first. To get to a legible ron dha on the "tail" end of the ganja, I feel that a designer had to go through a number of illegible steps. I imagine that at first there was no greneng, no ron dha. Then there arose a deformation of the edge of the "tail" area, something uncommon. It may have been a physical need to stop an opponent's blade, or it may have been something else, possibly even accidental damage. My point is that designers realized that the edge deformation was pleasing or useful and could be shaped in a meaningful way, eventually to become the contour of letters, and eventually to acquire a mystical meaning. This must have happened in time and involving considerable trial and error. I guess this is what David's initial question referred to; what was that initial deformation of the tail edge that prompted the design process that lead to a legible or meaningful greneng. These are my thoughts and I have no way to support them. Thank you all for a fascinating discourse. Emanuel

21st November 2007, 12:41 AM	#4
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Thank you, Manolo, for your suggestion on the 'designing' aspect. There is, actually, a 'pre-formed' greneng called 'greneng wurung'. Wurung or durung means 'belum' in Bahasa and literally means 'not yet', 'unfinished'. In this case, it could be translated as 'unperfect greneng'. But this kind of greneng has it's own problems. It is very possible that this forms were caused by the worn-out blade. This form also, very likely, to be found on the lower quality blades. Thus, incapability of the maker should be taken account. But it is quite tempting to think that the greneng wurung is the predecessor of the full-shaped greneng. David, as you suggest that we should find the cause in Hindu cultures, why don't you consider the kukri's cho ? This notch in the lower part of kukri has similar form with greneng/ ron dha, and it also has symbolic meaning(s) and 'lack of functionality' as a tool/weapon. http://www.himalayan-imports.com/khukuri-history.html Please note while I'm suggesting some relations between cho and greneng, I keep my opinion neutral regarding this relationship

21st November 2007, 07:03 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,219	i also belong to the himalayan imports forum, where the cho/kaudi debate comes up frequently. a recent thread-> Linky the conclusion is normally 'no one knows why they have one, or why other nepali weapons do not, they just do'. they are now a religious and traditional inclusion on the kukuhri's such that it is not considered a kukuhri if it does not have one. the kami's normally bless the new kukhri's in a mass ceremony involving sacrifice, so they are serious. kukuhri cho/kaudi also come in a closed style rather than the more common notch: examples: so, the blood dripper/blade catcher theory falls a bit flat with those variants.

21st November 2007, 01:17 PM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Just for fun, here's some results of direct "translation" of one language (or perhaps culture; in our case) to another. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8gnLAvA3rM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCRl5vlMk1I

21st November 2007, 08:42 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,009	Regarding the notch in a khukri blade. What I might know about khuks could be written on the head of a pin, however, I do have a good friend who lives in Canada, and who, for the last 20 years or so, has been married to the daughter of a Nepalese Brahmin, who lives with them. Father in law was a professor of cultural studies at an Indian university, and my friend is a long-time student of the khukri, weapons culture in general, and Nepalese weaponry in particular. He is an intelligent man whose work involves logical investigation at a university level. He does not, to the best of my knowledge involve himself in internet forums and when I have raised this question with him he has indicated in a very forceful manner that he has no wish to use his time in this manner. I asked him for his take on the notch in the blade of khuks. Here is his response:- not one reason but a few. the principle reason , which could be carved on stone,I was told by a nepalese of experience, not just a figured out theory, is to control blood flow, when chopping up people. blood on the edge will flow along the edge to the notch then drips off the notch to the ground rather than running over the handle.. I tried it though with milk not blood and it works pretty well.. As well it forms a lock, when in scabbard bladedown and the notch helps lock it.,. as well many people have told me it represents Mt kailas in tibet, where shiva is said to rest, so its religous symbol i.e. could be prayed to.