Seven spears from same origin?

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2007, 11:57 PM

Hi Fernando,
Im glad I could add something to the great input already in on these. Its always amazing how much knowledge is out there and much of it very specialized. I was lucky to recollect seeing these nasty looking things in a Sudanese collection during intense research on kaskaras a while back.

The concepts presented concerning hunting weapons is well placed, and I believe I recall some very long 'arrows' with such features used in the Philippines, possibly Igorot, but I cannot claim that with any certainty. I leave that to those in that field of study.

The use of barbs on projectile weapons has been discussed before on harpoons, which were mentioned here also, and they were indeed a means of securing the prey. In study of American Indian arrows, it is noted that heads on hunting arrows were deliberately loosely mounted as described .

The comments on elaborate design or intimidating features on African weapons is certainly well placed also. In many instances there are weapons in many tribal regions intended to appear terrifying or threatening. Such 'psychological warfare' was often an important element of tribal warfare and traditional culture in the assertion of power and control.

Really nice pieces, and indeed might have belonged to a single warrior, so I can agree with wanting to keep them together.

I would be very surprised if these were not 19th c. and as noted, of the Mahdist period.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 23rd September 2007, 01:00 PM

The Roman pilum had a thin shaft between the spear head and the wooden haft. Designed to 'bend' on impact so that the spear could not be thrown back at them. I would imagine that the barbs were a solution to the same problem. Imbedded in a shield and hard to remove, the shield would be heavy and unwieldly, nullifying the defence of your enemy and also preventing them being thrown back. Obviously those that hit their human targets would be also difficult and painful to remove even if they struck non-vital areas of the body. The 'complete' spears that I have are firmly fixed so removing the shaft from the 'imbedded' spear head would not be an option (in the heat of battle.)
I can imagine trying to defend yourself with 6 foot of spear protruding from your body would not be an ideal situation.

My belief is that the triangular barbed heads are mainly for war, the smaller 'oval' headed are hunting / war and the last 'needle pointed' version is likely for 'fishing'.

fernando · 23rd September 2007, 09:16 PM

Is everybody forgetting another use for Zande spears?
I have just read they used them for trading marriages. It seems as the bridgegroom has to give the girls father some ten pieces, within time prior to the comitment.
Perhaps these seven blades were part of a dowry, as the bride fled before the entangling took place

Maybe only the unshafted blades were handed over, in these rituals. That would explain why these specific examples don't show any traces of shafts having been in place ... my fantasy.

fernando

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2007, 10:38 PM

I think that the lack of a shaft or evidence of having been shafted (uh, been there..done that!!

may indicate these had been stored in one of the arsenals in the Sudan, perhaps Khartoum. During the Mahdist period in the Sudan, huge numbers of weapons were accumulated to supply the massive forces of the Mahdi. If these were not mounted, perhaps that would suggest they had not been with the weapons of a particular warrior after all.

Interesting material on the Roman spears and shows how even ancient concepts were still applied to 'modern' warfare in tribal cultures. While using ancient weaponry and tactics against then modern technology, these warriors were not only formidable, but extremely deadly. The note on the incapacitation of the victim with spear imbedded is well placed, and the wound itself even without the inconvenience of protruding shaft seems like it would preclude any further combat from that individual.

So the spears were used in weddings/marraiges? Ah ha! Well , I guess we could probably get lots of mileage on that note

but I'll leave well enough alone...I honestly had not heard of weapons in dowries, usually cattle or livestock, but very plausible idea.

VANDOO · 24th September 2007, 02:21 AM

A VERY NICE GROUP SHOWING SEVERAL FORMS ALL WELL MADE. TWO OF THE POINTS HAVE DAMMAGE TO THE BARBS THE ONE SECOND FROM THE RIGHT ESPECIALLY , SO THEY MAY HAVE SEEN USE. THESE COME ACROSS AS BEAUTIFUL TO ME DESPITE THEIR SPIKES BUT IF ONE WAS THREATENING ME WOULD NO LONGER LOOK PRETTY

kronckew · 24th September 2007, 06:04 AM

there was an earlier post here on a similar barbed spear, i recall, where we discussed it's possible mahdi-ist origins, i remember posting a reference to a article, written by winston churchill - who was at the battle of omdurman as a cavalryman - with reference to the 'fishhook spears' - and another about medical treatment after the battle and how the doctors had difficulty removing the spears from wounded soldiers because of the wicked barbs on them.....

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2007, 05:32 AM

Kronckew,
I'd sure like to find that reference!!! Anybody out there know where we might locate this?

24th September 2007, 06:04 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	there was an earlier post here on a similar barbed spear, i recall, where we discussed it's possible mahdi-ist origins, i remember posting a reference to a article, written by winston churchill - who was at the battle of omdurman as a cavalryman - with reference to the 'fishhook spears' - and another about medical treatment after the battle and how the doctors had difficulty removing the spears from wounded soldiers because of the wicked barbs on them..... Last edited by kronckew; 24th September 2007 at 06:17 AM.

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22nd September 2007, 11:57 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Hi Fernando, Im glad I could add something to the great input already in on these. Its always amazing how much knowledge is out there and much of it very specialized. I was lucky to recollect seeing these nasty looking things in a Sudanese collection during intense research on kaskaras a while back. The concepts presented concerning hunting weapons is well placed, and I believe I recall some very long 'arrows' with such features used in the Philippines, possibly Igorot, but I cannot claim that with any certainty. I leave that to those in that field of study. The use of barbs on projectile weapons has been discussed before on harpoons, which were mentioned here also, and they were indeed a means of securing the prey. In study of American Indian arrows, it is noted that heads on hunting arrows were deliberately loosely mounted as described . The comments on elaborate design or intimidating features on African weapons is certainly well placed also. In many instances there are weapons in many tribal regions intended to appear terrifying or threatening. Such 'psychological warfare' was often an important element of tribal warfare and traditional culture in the assertion of power and control. Really nice pieces, and indeed might have belonged to a single warrior, so I can agree with wanting to keep them together. I would be very surprised if these were not 19th c. and as noted, of the Mahdist period. All the best, Jim

23rd September 2007, 01:00 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The Roman pilum had a thin shaft between the spear head and the wooden haft. Designed to 'bend' on impact so that the spear could not be thrown back at them. I would imagine that the barbs were a solution to the same problem. Imbedded in a shield and hard to remove, the shield would be heavy and unwieldly, nullifying the defence of your enemy and also preventing them being thrown back. Obviously those that hit their human targets would be also difficult and painful to remove even if they struck non-vital areas of the body. The 'complete' spears that I have are firmly fixed so removing the shaft from the 'imbedded' spear head would not be an option (in the heat of battle.) I can imagine trying to defend yourself with 6 foot of spear protruding from your body would not be an ideal situation. My belief is that the triangular barbed heads are mainly for war, the smaller 'oval' headed are hunting / war and the last 'needle pointed' version is likely for 'fishing'.

23rd September 2007, 09:16 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Is everybody forgetting another use for Zande spears? I have just read they used them for trading marriages. It seems as the bridgegroom has to give the girls father some ten pieces, within time prior to the comitment. Perhaps these seven blades were part of a dowry, as the bride fled before the entangling took place Maybe only the unshafted blades were handed over, in these rituals. That would explain why these specific examples don't show any traces of shafts having been in place ... my fantasy. fernando

23rd September 2007, 10:38 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	I think that the lack of a shaft or evidence of having been shafted (uh, been there..done that!! may indicate these had been stored in one of the arsenals in the Sudan, perhaps Khartoum. During the Mahdist period in the Sudan, huge numbers of weapons were accumulated to supply the massive forces of the Mahdi. If these were not mounted, perhaps that would suggest they had not been with the weapons of a particular warrior after all. Interesting material on the Roman spears and shows how even ancient concepts were still applied to 'modern' warfare in tribal cultures. While using ancient weaponry and tactics against then modern technology, these warriors were not only formidable, but extremely deadly. The note on the incapacitation of the victim with spear imbedded is well placed, and the wound itself even without the inconvenience of protruding shaft seems like it would preclude any further combat from that individual. So the spears were used in weddings/marraiges? Ah ha! Well , I guess we could probably get lots of mileage on that note but I'll leave well enough alone...I honestly had not heard of weapons in dowries, usually cattle or livestock, but very plausible idea.

24th September 2007, 02:21 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE GROUP SHOWING SEVERAL FORMS ALL WELL MADE. TWO OF THE POINTS HAVE DAMMAGE TO THE BARBS THE ONE SECOND FROM THE RIGHT ESPECIALLY , SO THEY MAY HAVE SEEN USE. THESE COME ACROSS AS BEAUTIFUL TO ME DESPITE THEIR SPIKES BUT IF ONE WAS THREATENING ME WOULD NO LONGER LOOK PRETTY

1st October 2007, 05:32 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Kronckew, I'd sure like to find that reference!!! Anybody out there know where we might locate this?