My first Tulwar

[Emanuel]

Hi Fernando, I apologize for the mistake. I had one of Flavio's threads open at the same time, I was tired and both of you start with F

What you say about the storing of swords in the time of Discovery could be valid. I wonder, are there no texts or treatises by Indian generals/strategists/etc ? There must be some sort of documentation left over from those times.

I always envy you folks on the home continent. Go in any shop and you're bound to find some treasure. Canadians generally go for the Wars memorabilia, understandably but saddly for me .

Best regards,
Emanuel

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Fernando, I apologize for the mistake. I had one of Flavio's threads open at the same time, I was tired and both of you start with F

No problem ... even usefull for discussions becoming less intense

Originally Posted by Manolo

What you say about the storing of swords in the time of Discovery could be valid. I wonder, are there no texts or treatises by Indian generals/strategists/etc ? There must be some sort of documentation left over from those times.

If there is somebody that could hold historical material of such level, the author of this ( and many ) books is potentially one or actualy the best of them. I can't put my hands ( hand ) on fire if he is developing some fantasy on the tulwar subject, but he holds the most precious specimens of weaponry, cannonery, armoury, documentations, cargo inventories, maps and portolanos , you name whatelse, of the discoveries period ... and not only. He is the owner of some items collections, like sword pommels and other, to the gauge of largest in the world. He was visited by the British Museum to inventory and photograph some of his collections ( was it the pommels or the gun locks ? ). He has plenty ranks and credentials both in Portugal and Europe. One of the persons that managed to visit his mannor house was Antonio Cejunior, a member of this Forum.
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/RDCollection.htm
Only he is not an web guy ... otherwise i would advice you ( or anyone else ) to check with him about the tulwar subject. The shops i mentioned in Lisbon are actually his own. This way he can sell his excedents and specially buy more and more stuff for his collection. Everytimes i go there and have a chance, i ask him to "lecture" me about a determined specimen. He "connects the turbos" and keeps disserting on the subject for hours, untill the next client or fellow collector or friend arrives.

Originally Posted by Manolo

I always envy you folks on the home continent. Go in any shop and you're bound to find some treasure. Canadians generally go for the Wars memorabilia, understandably but saddly for me .
Best regards,
Emanuel

Not so simple as claping hands ... but if one has the money, curious things show up, every now and then.

Lots of health for you
fernando

[fernando]

Hi Spiral
Part of the answer is in the answer i just posted to Manolo.
I wouldn't know if the count is 500 000 items, but you must consider not only basic weaponry specimens but also periphericals, amunitions, accessories, documents and all sorts of devices. He lends and donates specimens to Museums and keeps permanent exhibitions in various places.
The book you mention is in its fourth edition and is actually called in Portuguese "Homens Espadas e Tomates" = "Men Swords and Tomatoes" which comes to the same. It's in fact the book i quoted on the tulwar theme and, that i know, Jim McDougall, Philip Tom and Marc Gener have a copy. I have three other of his works. Some are bilingual. I take it that the others are more on the historical side and don't discuss or depict weapons themselves, which is not my interest. I also ignore if the books he wrote are such sixty, or if some of them are just thematic articles, but i know that he writes introductions and makes evaluations for fine weapons auctions catalogues, from wich i have one or two. He is also the guy selected by the Courts when it comes the need for antique weapons expertize. Among various ranks, he is the President of the Portuguese Academy of Antique Arms, from which i have a couple bilingual bulletins. In other words, exorbitating or not, i bet he feels well above those that may pretend to question his deeds . You know, when a guy is good and famous at something, he has more perrogatives to enhance his knowledge or even "invent" variations, than greyish folks. Speaking about his balls accuracy, i heard that he goes on his third wife .
Yes, as i told Emanuel, i know the shop you mention and another one in Cascais. I also know that he once opened another one in London, in front of Harrods, to buy stuff from Portuguese Aristocracy that fled from Portugal during the last revolution in 1974. As an example, he has bought from an unamed Marquis lots of precious documentation from the XVI and XVII century.
About you having not read any of his works, you know the British phlegm ... Portuguese ? Discoveries? what in heck is that ?
Exceptionaly one of the best or even unique Portuguese works from the XVIII century, ESPINGARDA PERFEITA = THE PERFECT GUN, was translated by him and a British called W. Keith Neal, and was selling for 10 pounds by Sotheby Parke Bernet, in 1974. Maybe you didn't exist at the time or were not old enough to buy books?! At leasdt i didn't see you around when i stayed in Britain for a couple months back in 1967
As for his other works i have or know, i can apoint them to you or even scan some of the pages, depending on your area of interest ... no big deal. Even if they are poor stuff, one allways gets to now more than before he reads them.
Sincerly
fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
Thank you for adding the excerpt from the Daehnhardt reference, it really has a lot of fascinating detail (its great to have the translated material since the text is in Portuguese and Ive always been resigned to admiring the illustrations. The discussion on whether the swords were stored intact or disassembled is truly an interesting aside here, and it is a topic I have really never been aware of nor considered.
It is an interesting idea that you have added some support for by showing the chronic unrest experienced in these kingdoms! It is interesting that the sword that Ariel has so kindly posted here is termed 'gaddara', a term that refers to riot or mutiny, suggesting that these events occurred enough that a sword type might be colloquially referred to by the term.

It seems to me that there are so many terms, concepts, misperceptions etc. in the study of arms and armour and history, and these have often led to myths, legends and folklore perpetuated by romanticizing and interpretation by later writers. Often these 'chestnuts' ( an English figure of speech are interjected into books, articles and narratives, and in these are seldom, if ever, referenced.
With this being the case, it is quite easy to imagine someone as immersed in a literal sea of antiquities and historica as Mr. Daehnhardt, adding such detail in writing without reference.
How lucky you are to have such a figure nearby Fernando! It would be so incredibly amazing for the opportunity to visit him and his collections!

It would seem that the fabricating of tulwar hilts, or others such as katars, in a single piece would be ease of manufacture. The well established use of trade blades, and probable existance of voluminous stores of these components in arsenals having been received from incoming vendors or traders, might have been in varying stages of assembly. Possibly the rulers saw no urgent need to employ furbishers in such assemblies until threat was perceived (sounds like pretty regularly though!).

While it is not noted by those who witnessed the removal of the arsenal materials, whether the weapons were intact or not, it is noted they were huge heaps of rusted metal mostly, and only the best examples were kept. Possibly what may have been implied was 'intact' examples ? as well as obviously those in better condition. As Manolo has suggested, the catalogues reflect many examples which were all intact from what I have seen. The most prominant armoury disassembly was of course Tanjore, and Elgood discusses this in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", huge numbers of items were acquired by Walhouse, who then furnished them to Oldman, whose catalogs are legion. Many of the items ended up with our sage of arms and armour, George Cameron Stone, who bequethed the majority to the Metropolitan Museum in New York.

Ariel,
I would like to thank you very much for so kindly posting the 'gaddara' entry from Pant, posting the page and especially for posting the magnificent example with it! I have been asking for posting of some of these entries in Pant as I do not have access to my copy and I know that many readers do not have copies, and the material is I think important in our discussions on Indian weapons.
I know I can only speak for myself, but I am sure many others are grateful as I am for your continued posts, observations and for answering the call as in this case. It is truly very much appreciated!

all very best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Jim,
As usually, your postings are most generous,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With this being the case, it is quite easy to imagine someone as immersed in a literal sea of antiquities and historica as Mr. Daehnhardt, adding such detail in writing without reference.
Jim

Very well put. I used to be skeptical about his bombastic statements, before i became aware of his possibilities in terms of material and information gathered. Some time ago a connection i have in Australia wanted to know how his uncle, an old artillery reconstitution specialist, would reproduce gunpowder barrels, in terms of their marks in the old days. I have visited the museum of the oldest gunpowder Factory in Portugal, and found nothing. I later phoned the museum curators and they knew nothing about the subject. Just in case i decided to ask Rainer Daehnhardt if he could tell me something about this issue. Well, he told me he happened to have in his collection
several shipping inventories ( cargo manifests ) of the XVI century, and he knew by mind the marking system employed in the gunpowder barrels at the period. I have found this an amazing episode.
best regards
fernando

[fernando]

Hi Spiral
here are some of the books written by Rainer Daehnhardt:

http://aeterna.no.sapo.pt/lusophia/p...oes_rainer.htm
http://www.livapolo.pt/index.php?act...sao=3174&seq=1

Some time i will scan some beautyfull unique pieces he has exhibited around.
Regards
fernando

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know if the count is 500 000 items, but you must consider not only basic weaponry specimens but also periphericals, amunitions, accessories, documents and all sorts of devices.
I also ignore if the books he wrote are such sixty,

All the information I citeed came from the same website you then linked to. You might find worth reading?

Originally Posted by fernando

. You know, when a guy is good and famous at something, he has more perrogatives to enhance his knowledge or even "invent" variations, than greyish folks. .

This is true, It doesnt make it neccasarily accurate though.

Originally Posted by fernando

About you having not read any of his works, you know the British phlegm ... Portuguese ? Discoveries? what in heck is that ?
. Even if they are poor stuff, one allways gets to now more than before he reads them.

I recall the portugese owned a fair bit of the world & only gave it up when forced to quite recently? & that the Portugese king bribed the Brit king with a gift of Bombay to get his ugly daughter married off many years ago ? Something like that anyway.

All western Europe did ok at ransacking the thirld world when we had guns & cannons & the natives didnt.

i also agree I to try learn from evry blade or book.

Originally Posted by fernando

Judging by the kukris i have already seen at his shop, i wouln't be surpised if he had a good number of them in his private collection. I remeber seing years ago in his Cascais shop a huge one, with a blade about half meter long ( almost two feet in your language ). I don't know if this was a decoration piece or what but, if memory helps, it had a label warning for its dangerous sharpeness. Probably you also find this hard to beleive but, this time, it is i who stand above that

Sounds good, ones that size are usualy either for tourists or beheading buffalo at festival time. A few old rare warriers ones also reached that size.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

After all, and if the business is on the basis of presumption, i would advance that your kukris collection, as big as it may be, would fit in one of the drawers at his mannor house ... don't take it bad .

Thats cool, if money was of the that important thing to me I woud have married the American hieress who wanted me to a few years ago.

Actualy I only keep examples of type & of course the best as well of the kukris I come across. Otherwise it seems boring, I dont collect by quantity. But each to there own. I know some collectors who keep evrything they buy.

I suggest you read up here & in litrature about tulwar etc. & then get him to sell you a realy good one.

Originally Posted by fernando

I see that you are at your best dividing 500 000 by time minutes ... without even a break for tea ( or pee ).
And what kind of 500 000 ... weapons or objects ? if it is objects, you can look to an entire row at same time. Therefore that is cheating

I think youll find youve mentioned this more than I did? & if someone is daft enough to think they can look an entire row of hand made items & assume they know them then thats shows a great lack of understanding.

Originally Posted by fernando

I have seen pictures with tulwars, samshirs and the like, stuffed in antique clay pots ... with a glimpse you can look at lots of them ... i can scan you pictures of these.

I want to see photos showing the many thousands, not a few stuffed in pots,etc. I see that in most houses I visit.

Originally Posted by fernando

Exceptionaly one of the best or even unique Portuguese works from the XVIII century, ESPINGARDA PERFEITA = THE PERFECT GUN, was translated by him and a British called W. Keith Neal, and was selling for 10 pounds by Sotheby Parke Bernet, in 1974. Maybe you didn't exist at the time or were not old enough to buy books?! At leasdt i didn't see you around when i stayed in Britain for a couple months back in 1967

Well I see you are aware of my youthfull good looks! its true i only owned 3 or 4 gun books at that time I must admit, but used to shoot clay pigeons evry sunday morning & go rough shooting occasionly, if only you were there I could have learnt so much!

Lets, see, tulwar were stored without handles, India only had 29 kings in that time period, & tulwar handels in Tirris book show no rivets. O yes & you thought I made up the 500 000 figure.

mmmmmmmmmmmm