My first Tulwar

[fernando]

Originally Posted by katana

Your Tulwar certainly seems 'battle worthy' and interesting that your sword is 'handed'...I have several which also feel better in the right hand. I suspect that as the blades are 'fixed' with resin, it was easier to 'set' the blade in a way to suit the owner.

David

Let me quote again the same book.
The purpose for the tulwar hilts being made in one only piece ( guard, grip and pommel ), an unusual practice in other swords, was to be practical to store them. As in these regions, invasions tumults and popular mutinies were rather frequent, the Sovereigns could store the hilts in one side and the blades in another, so that it needed some time for the swords to be mounted and used. When actual wars were about to come, the Sovereigns would know that with a determined antecipation, and the swords could be mounted in time for battle.
Talking figures, amounts like 100 thousand hilts could be kept in well locked towers, and the equivalent number of blades would be kept with a confortable distance.
For the mounting, hilts were held upsidown and pitch was poured into the hollow grip, the only material that held the blades in position.

[spiral]

My apology was to you Fernado & to other foromites & the moderaters as well.

My rude comment about IQ was particularily aimed at the finger on the ricaso concept, from whoever it came from. You or the auther or anyone else. After all it realy does negate any point in having a guard. It is a shame i put my point over so badley though. me bad. I am just incredulus when people say it.

That rather shows my then state of bieng as your comment was more related to the storeing handles & blades in different places.

RE.

Originally Posted by fernando

For the mounting, hilts were held upsidown and pitch was poured into the hollow grip, the only material that held the blades in position.

Examination of tulwar hilts quite often shows methods other than copius amouts of pitch & sap derivied resins I think?


Katana, India is {& was.} made up with many races & peoples in some areas like Coorg People most people are very small, While some of the Punjabi & Rajastan people are rather on the large size, I dont think one handle size would do for evryone.

Spiral

[fernando]

Hi Spiral,

Let's skip over that and go back to business

Originally Posted by spiral

Examination of tulwar hilts quite often shows methods other than copius amouts of pitch & sap derivied resins I think?

Spiral

When i said the only material that fixed the blade i meant to say that there were no rivets or screws or the like, just the liquid material. The book actually mentions pitch, but i am ready to accept the idea of other solutions being used. This is my first tulwar after all, and i only have a couple books on the subject, whereas you have a larger experience. Pitch was o.k. for me, as i had already read it was also used to fix jambiyas. Besides, it is a very old stuff. Maybe other solutions took place in later times ?
As for the tulwar ricasso and the forefinger, it wasn't in the book, but my whilling to speculate a bit in the subject of European influences on Oriental weaponry, as i tryed to explain in my reply to the last Ariel's posting.
All the best
fernando

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by spiral

My apology was to you Fernado & to other foromites & the moderaters as well.

Cheers, Spiral.

[ariel]

Fernando,
Re: slanted quillons.
For the life of me, I cannot remember where I got this info from originally. I've heard it mentioned casually so many times that I assumed it was just a well known and trivial piece of info.
If I am wrong, than I also apologize.

[spiral]

Thankyou....

Fernando, For me sap & pitch are all very similar, although some are also fitted with a chalky rock type substance, possibly borax? some tulwar do have a rivet in them as well, & on some otheres the finial is pinched or some such tight fitting onto the tang as a permenant fixing & indeed I have had one piece where the final was actuly part of the tang, it was only because of damage that this was visible.

I dont know how common such fixings were as generaly the second two varietys are only visble if the handle is damaged or removed in some way.

I expect others here have seen many more dismantled tulwar than I.

Spiral

[Jens Nordlunde]

This post can also be read on My Pata.


Damascene Work in India, 1892, by T. H. Hendley.

Page 10. The fist fills the grip of the Indian sword, and a large pommel confines the hand. Burton points out that this was the case long ago, as Arjuna is so represented grasping his weapon in the Caves of Elephanta. As the Indian does not fence, he does not require a straight pointed weapon. The Indian hilt is small and has no knuckle-guard. The heavier swords have knuckle-guards, and even basket hilts. The huge gauntlet swords – Patta – used by the Nagas or military monks of Jeypore, and by Mahrattas, have large steel gauntlets.
Comments to page 10. I find the description of how the hilts were held were good, and feel sure that he would have mentioned it, had the Indians held it otherwise.

Page 11. [about the katar] It is mentioned by Ibn Batuka, who lived in the days of Mohamed Toghluk, that is, about AD 1332.
Comments to page 11. A travel companion of Betuta’s was killed at the coast of west India, with a weapon described as being a katar. As the katar described, hardly is the first one ‘invented’, it is likely that the katar, as a weapon, is far older.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by spiral

Thankyou....

Fernando, For me sap & pitch are all very similar, although some are also fitted with a chalky rock type substance, possibly borax? some tulwar do have a rivet in them as well, & on some otheres the finial is pinched or some such tight fitting onto the tang as a permenant fixing & indeed I have had one piece where the final was actuly part of the tang, it was only because of damage that this was visible.

I dont know how common such fixings were as generaly the second two varietys are only visble if the handle is damaged or removed in some way.

I expect others here have seen many more dismantled tulwar than I.

Spiral

Very interesting and oportune, Spiral

I will start be re-interpretering what i have read. Tulwar hilts are built to one piece, not meaning they are cast in one piece. So the assumed difference between them and other sword hilts is that they are kept assembled in one piece, whereas the other diverse hilts remain available with their components separate. I hope this is not nonsense.
As for the fixing to the blade, i look at the several examples in Tirri's book, and they all seem not to have rivets. Could this mean could mean the majority of these pieces are fixed only by "glueing" the tang into the grips?
On the hand i must say that i am just arriving from my visit back to the guy who sold me the tulwar, as i knew he had two more of these pieces, which i haven't found so appealing. Efectively one of them had its tang also fixed by a rivet. The other one must have had a hilt "pommel" accident, and the disk and finial were refixed by openning a vent on the grip top and insert the finial "flat vertical plate" into it, and fix it with two rivets ... aparently a period repair. However i saw no signs of this disc/finial set being fixed/riveted to the tang, before or after the damage.

Now i have some important questions and i need some help here

I have noticed that these two tulwars, without knuckle guards, had grooves and also a false edge in the one third blade near the tip, as for thrusting. One of them even has a little hump where the bevel starts. Looking to Tirry's book, i would say these would be gaddaras, a sort of tulwar with a kilig blade. Is this potentially correct?
They both have short blades, some 28" in straight line.Their disks are very plain, as all the rest.
The one with the humped false edge had one langet repair. Looks like a new langet was welded with brass or bronze soldering. I wonder if "golden" look soldering is old enough for this to be a period repair. I can only think of contemporaneous oxiacetylene brass or bronze soldering.
I am tempted to buy this piece, the price is around $ 280 (the one i have now cost me $ 350).
I now i am a sucker.
Should i buy this humped false edge gaddara looking tulwar ?
Remember this is a small country and there are'nt many old weapons around.
BTW i am not an eBay or any kind of web auction user
Thanks a lot in advance for some helping response.
fernando

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

.
As for the fixing to the blade, i look at the several examples in Tirri's book, and they all seem not to have rivets.

Hi Fernando, can I suggest you look again at Tirris book, in. fig. 249 one is riveted twice, {Ive never seen double rivets on tulwar before.} & in fig 249c 3 have the single rivet fixing. So that 4 out of 12 tulwar showing rivets, { fig 249b they have none.} But realy unless you try to dissasemble the grip you can find what other hidden fixing there may be.

If any tulwar were kept dissasembled, {something I personaly find hard to belive, but cannot disprove. dispite the fact it would logisticaly be a nightmare.}} they would only be the very lowest quality pieces for volonteers & conscripted peasents, as after all all the Marajahs, kings & major landowners whatever, had there own proffesional standing full time army & troops.

Brass Brazing has been around for centurys in India.

For $280 I would want a very nice tulwar, but they are commen in England.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

Remember this is a small country and there are'nt many old weapons around.

I think Mr. Rhienheardt can explain why that is!


Well if he has got that many pieces thats incredible, he could build the most arms impresive museam in the world!

But its still true that If he looked at each piece for five minutes, non stop for 10 hours a day evry day it would take him 15years!

Its a pity there arnt more photos of his collection online.

Spiral

[fernando]

Sorry, this was a double up

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Fernando,
Re: slanted quillons.
For the life of me, I cannot remember where I got this info from originally. I've heard it mentioned casually so many times that I assumed it was just a well known and trivial piece of info.
If I am wrong, than I also apologize.

Hi Ariel,
I am feeling sort of uncomfortable with so many apologies
The fact that i am contemplated with postings from a God's lion in my threads is quite a prize for me. I am no academic. I will consider your assumption on this subject good enough for me, until something otherwise proves the contrary.

fernando