Could this be Indonesian ? or Dutch?

David · 1st September 2007, 05:48 PM

Tom, i didn't say it wasn't from Indonesia, just that it isn't a tombak. I never said that there aren't such spears there by a different name.
If you have a photo of a tombak without a metuk i would love to see it. I am always open to having my mind changed.

katana · 4th September 2007, 12:28 PM

Thank you Tom and David for the further posts

personally I am convinced that this is a re-mounted spear head and almost certainly of SEA origins, whether this was hilted (or even re-hilted) in Europe is another story. I have been unable to find a similar dagger described as European ....all the examples I have found (with very similar features to my own) have been attributed to SEA (some with pamor... most without)
The 'balance' and solid construction seems to suggest that this dagger was made with care for a purely functional use....to stab. I have considered this to be a 'hunting dirk' but it really does not fit the 'profile'.

I suppose, with weapons that are not readily easy to ID, you have to weigh up the comments of others, your own knowledge and the 'feel' of the weapon in question.....until proved otherwise.

kronckew · 5th September 2007, 02:25 PM

are we letting our own hopes and experiences keep us from thinking outside our 'box'?

some pretty letter openers out there. saw a nice victorian one with a stag grip on ebay recently

katana · 5th September 2007, 08:27 PM

I take your point kronckew...we should all think 'out of the box'......but this is no paper knife....mid rib is 7mm distally tapered to 3mm just before the tip. It's too heavy duty both in weight and construction at approx. 34cms long (9cms (3 3/4") longer than the longest length stated in the posted examples) it would be 'cumbersome' and the blade perhaps a little thick for effective 'envelope opening'.

I take your point about the overall shape of the paper knife blades...but the design (being symmetrical) allows use by either right or left 'handers'. The blade on mine has a very heavy 'tang', as mentioned before, as the balance point is where blade meets handle. A paper knife likely would have a 'weedy' rat tail or half tang fixed by adhesive 'resin'.

As usual (with knives I am not certain about) I 'tested' this dagger on various thicknesses of ply wood to assertain strengh and 'penetration'. This easily holes 3/8" ply and the point is visible on 1/2" with no damage to the knife at all. I am certain that a paper knife would not perform as well. Spark testing the blade shows high carbon content and is not 'stainless steel' which the majority of paper knives would be (to prevent rust marks on your letters, and no oil marks either from a knife with a properly maintained carbon blade)

Any way I've already got a paper knife in my collection

Regards David

tom hyle · 6th September 2007, 05:16 AM

Nice; is that what it's for? Can we see a fuller pic?
I, BTW, am incapable of posting pics; no idea how it's done, I'm affraid.

kronckew · 6th September 2007, 10:25 AM

hi katana,

it does sound a bit thick for a letter opener, the short shafted pilum that was subject to an earlier dissertation

looks like it can take care of your correspondence instead while we ponder the source of your latest weapon.

the two opposing flats on the integral bolster look interesting, could it be for a wrench or tongs to hold it while inserting it in the grip? hard to tell from a small photo. maybe an x-ray of the tang thru the grip by a co-operative dentist, vet or hospital will shed some light. not loose is it? any indication of how it's stuck on, screwed in, cutlers cement, laha or just fibre wrapped & pushed in like a tombak or keris?

katana · 6th September 2007, 04:02 PM

Hi Kronkew,
there is a small chip out of the handle next to where the metalwork finishes....which reveals a very small gap, inserting a piece of wire I have found that there is a 2mm depth before it hits the 'tang'. The 'chamfered bolster' is 17 mm diameter which suggests that the tang is 13mm (ie 17mm-2mm -2mm) in diameter (assuming it is round). The hilt is solid with no signs of adhesive, pins etc ....so I have no idea how its fixed

The 'flats' are small depressions....perhaps the tang area was heated , held with tongs and 'burned' into the antler

Some school boy calculations seem to suggest that the 'tang' is 7.5 -8.5 cms. The dagger weighs 200 g, as the balance point is at the end of the handle, the hilt end weighs approx 100g, steel is 7.7g per 1cm cubed, assuming the 'tang' is round and 13mm along its length it weighs approx. 70-80g (I think around 20g-30g for the antler... its approx. 1g per 1cm cubed (lets say 100 -20 =80) 77 g would mean 10cm cubed of steel ....which equates to 7.57cm of 13mm diameter 'rod'. There is a fair bit of speculation ..there are alot of 'approximates' ..the tang may even taper, meaning that the tang is even longer.

Hi Tom,
the 'paper knife' is in fact an asparagus knife, which Kronckew correctly ID'ed for me (originally it was 'handle less') Its actually an interesting 'mistake' and seems to be very collectable.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5014

5th September 2007, 08:27 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I take your point kronckew...we should all think 'out of the box'......but this is no paper knife....mid rib is 7mm distally tapered to 3mm just before the tip. It's too heavy duty both in weight and construction at approx. 34cms long (9cms (3 3/4") longer than the longest length stated in the posted examples) it would be 'cumbersome' and the blade perhaps a little thick for effective 'envelope opening'. I take your point about the overall shape of the paper knife blades...but the design (being symmetrical) allows use by either right or left 'handers'. The blade on mine has a very heavy 'tang', as mentioned before, as the balance point is where blade meets handle. A paper knife likely would have a 'weedy' rat tail or half tang fixed by adhesive 'resin'. As usual (with knives I am not certain about) I 'tested' this dagger on various thicknesses of ply wood to assertain strengh and 'penetration'. This easily holes 3/8" ply and the point is visible on 1/2" with no damage to the knife at all. I am certain that a paper knife would not perform as well. Spark testing the blade shows high carbon content and is not 'stainless steel' which the majority of paper knives would be (to prevent rust marks on your letters, and no oil marks either from a knife with a properly maintained carbon blade) Any way I've already got a paper knife in my collection Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 5th September 2007 at 08:46 PM.

6th September 2007, 10:25 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	hi katana, it does sound a bit thick for a letter opener, the short shafted pilum that was subject to an earlier dissertation looks like it can take care of your correspondence instead while we ponder the source of your latest weapon. the two opposing flats on the integral bolster look interesting, could it be for a wrench or tongs to hold it while inserting it in the grip? hard to tell from a small photo. maybe an x-ray of the tang thru the grip by a co-operative dentist, vet or hospital will shed some light. not loose is it? any indication of how it's stuck on, screwed in, cutlers cement, laha or just fibre wrapped & pushed in like a tombak or keris? Last edited by kronckew; 6th September 2007 at 10:53 AM.

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1st September 2007, 05:48 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Tom, i didn't say it wasn't from Indonesia, just that it isn't a tombak. I never said that there aren't such spears there by a different name. If you have a photo of a tombak without a metuk i would love to see it. I am always open to having my mind changed.

4th September 2007, 12:28 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you Tom and David for the further posts personally I am convinced that this is a re-mounted spear head and almost certainly of SEA origins, whether this was hilted (or even re-hilted) in Europe is another story. I have been unable to find a similar dagger described as European ....all the examples I have found (with very similar features to my own) have been attributed to SEA (some with pamor... most without) The 'balance' and solid construction seems to suggest that this dagger was made with care for a purely functional use....to stab. I have considered this to be a 'hunting dirk' but it really does not fit the 'profile'. I suppose, with weapons that are not readily easy to ID, you have to weigh up the comments of others, your own knowledge and the 'feel' of the weapon in question.....until proved otherwise.

5th September 2007, 02:25 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	are we letting our own hopes and experiences keep us from thinking outside our 'box'? some pretty letter openers out there. saw a nice victorian one with a stag grip on ebay recently

6th September 2007, 05:16 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nice; is that what it's for? Can we see a fuller pic? I, BTW, am incapable of posting pics; no idea how it's done, I'm affraid.

6th September 2007, 04:02 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Kronkew, there is a small chip out of the handle next to where the metalwork finishes....which reveals a very small gap, inserting a piece of wire I have found that there is a 2mm depth before it hits the 'tang'. The 'chamfered bolster' is 17 mm diameter which suggests that the tang is 13mm (ie 17mm-2mm -2mm) in diameter (assuming it is round). The hilt is solid with no signs of adhesive, pins etc ....so I have no idea how its fixed The 'flats' are small depressions....perhaps the tang area was heated , held with tongs and 'burned' into the antler Some school boy calculations seem to suggest that the 'tang' is 7.5 -8.5 cms. The dagger weighs 200 g, as the balance point is at the end of the handle, the hilt end weighs approx 100g, steel is 7.7g per 1cm cubed, assuming the 'tang' is round and 13mm along its length it weighs approx. 70-80g (I think around 20g-30g for the antler... its approx. 1g per 1cm cubed (lets say 100 -20 =80) 77 g would mean 10cm cubed of steel ....which equates to 7.57cm of 13mm diameter 'rod'. There is a fair bit of speculation ..there are alot of 'approximates' ..the tang may even taper, meaning that the tang is even longer. Hi Tom, the 'paper knife' is in fact an asparagus knife, which Kronckew correctly ID'ed for me (originally it was 'handle less') Its actually an interesting 'mistake' and seems to be very collectable. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5014