Dangers of Producing replica ethnographic weapons and art

Dajak · 29th July 2007, 10:18 AM

The main danger that I foresee is when the people use old parts from authentic antique ethnographic weapons.Then add these new parts to them and then age these new parts so they will look old as a antique .Thus creates a HYBRID of a object that could then be sold /passed off as a real authentic antique weapon this then directly diminishes the collecting pool of real authentic ethnographic objects wether they be a Sword, dagger ,spear and so fourth.

A Hybrid is not a true antique weapon and never ever should be considered as such but is a put together object and does not have the same value of a 100% authentic antique weapon .These hybrids can further pollute the True Ethnographic collecting pool ....
Another point I would make how many great master paintings in Museums around the world have found to be fakes over the past few years. How many Antiquities fakes have also been found as well, lets not have this happen to the Ethnographic weapons .

Ben

Rick · 29th July 2007, 04:09 PM

http://www.thehenryford.org/exhibits/pic/2000/00apr.asp

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2007, 05:58 PM

Extremely well said Ben!!! and TVV brings up very well placed observations as well

As collectors of authentic antique edged weapons, this is a subject that has always been with us, and one that has become increasingly disturbing as the prices gained by these weapons lure the opportunists. As collecting these weapons has increased in popularity, many with the resources simply will approach acquiring without abandon, leaving many serious students of these weapons behind. This is just one of the many factors that has created todays climate of incredibly priced antiques, fakes, authentically intended reproductions and the Frankenstein lot of conglomerations of components.

The dangers of this disturbing amalgam for the serious student of the history and development of weapons is of course that actual history that is held in the weapons themselves is often either completely destroyed, or misrepresented. Even the best intentions of cleaning up the actual weapons takes away all prospects of analyzing the age and original compliance of the components and reduces the weapon to the uncertainty of the world of fakes and reproductions. I would like to say here that serious reproductions are not 'fakes' but in many cases faithful reproductions, which I agree have merit in thier use for reenactment activities. These examples and activities are indeed viable for our study and understanding of the events in which the actual original weapons were used.I believe that the participants deserve considerable praise for the tenacity and resolve they exhibit in thier pursuit of the history and authenticity of the tactics, strategy and in our case, the appropriate use of the weapons.

One of the most confounding situations that complicates the often found 'hybrid' weapons is that many such weapons were in fact contrived during thier working lives, and are indeed authentic antiques in thier own right. Key examples of such weapons are often found in Spanish colonial forms, where frontier blacksmiths often fashioned ersatz weapons for the auxiliary units, using whatever surplus or resources were at hand. Many examples were refurbished in the field, and in the tribal regions of North Africa it is not unusual to see incongruous components together (as seen in the 'mixed up sword' thread). While these weapons due indeed have historic value, the problem is that the preying charlatans often 'create' such examples using parts from scrapped weapons and try to produce exotic pieces to tempt novice collectors. Take it from one who knows

...its a tough but convincing way to learn the difference.

Knowledge is power, and as always 'caveat emptor'!! Deal only with reputable dealers who will not misrepresent thier work, and will guarantee full refund if examination reveals problems. So called 'hybrids' are best acquired when they can be closely examined to verify telltale patination and various marks that reveal age of the work done.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 29th July 2007, 11:29 PM

Ben may be onto something.
Victorian copies of Medieval arms and armor are being misinterpreted as real stuff for quite a while.
And sold accordingly

Dajak · 30th July 2007, 12:30 AM

Onto what Ariel ?

Ben

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2007, 02:03 AM

good observation Ariel.

Bill · 30th July 2007, 03:16 AM

I think that a number of 'hybrid' ivory hilted moro kris are showing up. I'd guess a least 4 have been posted on this site fairly receintly. I have no trouble with some one restoring missing parts but think it's a real shame to destroy a legit antique. If a hilt was in poor condition, I can see making a simular hilt & would keep the original with the sword. I hope that who ever is making these hybrid's have saved the old hilts but it appears they are now permently seperated from the swords. IMO, these hybrid's lessen the value of the original.

29th July 2007, 04:09 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	A Prime Example http://www.thehenryford.org/exhibits/pic/2000/00apr.asp

29th July 2007, 05:58 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Extremely well said Ben!!! and TVV brings up very well placed observations as well As collectors of authentic antique edged weapons, this is a subject that has always been with us, and one that has become increasingly disturbing as the prices gained by these weapons lure the opportunists. As collecting these weapons has increased in popularity, many with the resources simply will approach acquiring without abandon, leaving many serious students of these weapons behind. This is just one of the many factors that has created todays climate of incredibly priced antiques, fakes, authentically intended reproductions and the Frankenstein lot of conglomerations of components. The dangers of this disturbing amalgam for the serious student of the history and development of weapons is of course that actual history that is held in the weapons themselves is often either completely destroyed, or misrepresented. Even the best intentions of cleaning up the actual weapons takes away all prospects of analyzing the age and original compliance of the components and reduces the weapon to the uncertainty of the world of fakes and reproductions. I would like to say here that serious reproductions are not 'fakes' but in many cases faithful reproductions, which I agree have merit in thier use for reenactment activities. These examples and activities are indeed viable for our study and understanding of the events in which the actual original weapons were used.I believe that the participants deserve considerable praise for the tenacity and resolve they exhibit in thier pursuit of the history and authenticity of the tactics, strategy and in our case, the appropriate use of the weapons. One of the most confounding situations that complicates the often found 'hybrid' weapons is that many such weapons were in fact contrived during thier working lives, and are indeed authentic antiques in thier own right. Key examples of such weapons are often found in Spanish colonial forms, where frontier blacksmiths often fashioned ersatz weapons for the auxiliary units, using whatever surplus or resources were at hand. Many examples were refurbished in the field, and in the tribal regions of North Africa it is not unusual to see incongruous components together (as seen in the 'mixed up sword' thread). While these weapons due indeed have historic value, the problem is that the preying charlatans often 'create' such examples using parts from scrapped weapons and try to produce exotic pieces to tempt novice collectors. Take it from one who knows...its a tough but convincing way to learn the difference. Knowledge is power, and as always 'caveat emptor'!! Deal only with reputable dealers who will not misrepresent thier work, and will guarantee full refund if examination reveals problems. So called 'hybrids' are best acquired when they can be closely examined to verify telltale patination and various marks that reveal age of the work done. All best regards, Jim

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29th July 2007, 10:18 AM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	The main danger that I foresee is when the people use old parts from authentic antique ethnographic weapons.Then add these new parts to them and then age these new parts so they will look old as a antique .Thus creates a HYBRID of a object that could then be sold /passed off as a real authentic antique weapon this then directly diminishes the collecting pool of real authentic ethnographic objects wether they be a Sword, dagger ,spear and so fourth. A Hybrid is not a true antique weapon and never ever should be considered as such but is a put together object and does not have the same value of a 100% authentic antique weapon .These hybrids can further pollute the True Ethnographic collecting pool .... Another point I would make how many great master paintings in Museums around the world have found to be fakes over the past few years. How many Antiquities fakes have also been found as well, lets not have this happen to the Ethnographic weapons . Ben

29th July 2007, 11:29 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ben may be onto something. Victorian copies of Medieval arms and armor are being misinterpreted as real stuff for quite a while. And sold accordingly

30th July 2007, 12:30 AM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Onto what Ariel ? Ben

30th July 2007, 02:03 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	good observation Ariel.

30th July 2007, 03:16 AM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I think that a number of 'hybrid' ivory hilted moro kris are showing up. I'd guess a least 4 have been posted on this site fairly receintly. I have no trouble with some one restoring missing parts but think it's a real shame to destroy a legit antique. If a hilt was in poor condition, I can see making a simular hilt & would keep the original with the sword. I hope that who ever is making these hybrid's have saved the old hilts but it appears they are now permently seperated from the swords. IMO, these hybrid's lessen the value of the original.