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20th July 2007, 03:41 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Posts: 29
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Greetings keris experts,
I’m looking at what are the after effects of post Tsunami in this thread; challenge one self to prove that given comments are true and relevant. I really see no point continuing with the non-stop harping of that someone. Let’s continue and move on…. Sepokal quoted: “Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan (rituals) that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" (signs) through cracks.” I’m wondering if this concept applies to some Javanese keris. What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter. Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate? Thanks & regards, Hana P.S – The term “Amalan” can be referred to habitual or religious rituals. |
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20th July 2007, 04:26 AM
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#2 | ||
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
Quote:
Ganjawulung |
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20th July 2007, 05:18 AM
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#3 |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,211
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In the supposed words of the great psycho-analyst Sigmund Freud, "...and sometmes a cigar is just a cigar."
 Cracks in the blade of a keris are forging flaws, but as Ganja suggest, people like to make the best of any given situation so stories start up to give special providence to error. The bottom line, of course, is what you choose to believe. If you believe a crack in your blade will brimg you good fortune it probably will.  Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm. But i agree that we should move on. And thank you BTW, for attempting to explain a few of the terms that others left untranslated.
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20th July 2007, 10:02 AM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 401
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Dear Hana,
From the Buginese & Javanese's perspectives, the cracks are just forging flaws like Pak Ganja & David had said earlier. And as you mentioned, to the Malays, it's different ball game altogether  .You know what they (the Malays) say, the cracks are actually the channels that your fragrant oils can seep into the body of the keris, thus feeding the spirit...... .David, re the cause of the "problem" I faced in another forum, it's nothing like this at all. Contrary to what you believed, it was caused by them insulting my personal belief / ways in treating keris that contained spirits. To them, the traditional ways (including smoking your keris) was blasphemous to Islam. These ppl could have misinformed you via pm etc thus your infering that I was the trouble maker... |
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20th July 2007, 02:10 PM
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#5 | |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,211
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Quote:
BTW, just for the record i have received no PMs in regards to that thread bon the other forum and i have not read the thread either so i will pass no judgement on it either way.
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20th July 2007, 03:18 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
This kind of keris with "pamengkang jagat" is much pursued by Javanese. Although this crack is in fact a forging flaw, some people believe that "pamengkang jagat" is good for "pursuing destination" (for instance, love...). And sometimes, this flaw even become the center of attention of a keris blade. Sometimes, quite artistic too... That's my humble opinion. I would like to hear Mr Mans or Mr Boedhy Aditya on this... Ganjawulung |
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20th July 2007, 07:47 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Posts: 29
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Greetings keris experts,
Ganjawulung – Thank you for the clarification. I’m glad you touch on "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sorsoran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position). Appreciate the brief description however; I would not want to impose on others to provide the information. I feel it’s their rights and if they are reluctant to impart knowledge for I will respect their decision. I’m fortunate to gain knowledge through networking with various people (don’t want to mention names) in this forum but often with confidentiality as a basis. Being ethical, I will ask permission to release information for sharing but was often rejected. That’s another reason why I prefer to keep mum and ask for referencing links. David – Quoted: “Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm”. Why I use “Tsunami” to contextualize what has happened? It’s not an exaggeration but more precise in my clarification. Here’s my observation; Tsunami attack = Sepokal posting, hitting many countries = nationality of forum members, chaotic people find ways to run for their lives = chaotic various members ready to reply responses, many dead = Thank god only one member stop penning, Tsunami ended and seas resume its calmness = Sepokal stop his replies and the other members started to lax. BTW, I don’t mind helping with the translation as I’m into languages. I’m not an expert but can understand English, Malay, Bahasa Indonesia, Baweanese, Mandarin, Hokkien and Cantonese dialects. I’m currently still learning Javanese and French. Penangsang – Please do not be disheartened with some negative responses. Remember my ex-colleague who loves to use this comment: “To assume is the mother of all **** up” (sorry for the foul language used). So the air is now clear and you can start beginning afresh. Kind regards, Hana P.S – I believe in “Behaviour breed Behaviour” so be kind and respectful always… Last edited by Rick; 20th July 2007 at 08:19 PM. Reason: a word not allowed ever |
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20th July 2007, 08:15 PM
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#8 |
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Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,336
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Hana, I appreciate your flair for the dramatic .
However you have been suspended for 30 days for using profanity...... Last edited by Rick; 20th July 2007 at 11:10 PM. |
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21st July 2007, 08:54 PM
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 199
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Quote:
I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith). Here is the story of my Sombro with "rondo beser". Twice, I brought that keris to a monthly forum which attended by kerislovers in my hometown Djokja. What did some of them give comment on that keris? side effect of a flaw forging as Gonjo said in this forum. On the other ocassion, I showed it to kerislovers who did not now about forging technique. In their opinion, this sombro was a very good keris because of extraordinary unseen power. One of them offered me unbelievable dowry (price) for that keris. In short, the keris is still mine now. Seemingly, there is two different point of view on either "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser". One view tends to focus on forging technique whilst the other one tends to focus on the spiritual aspect. In my own opinion, these two different views can not compared each other because the difference comes since the beginning. I just remember a fiction film "lord of the ring". I don't remember in detail about the broken sword which finally reforging successfully by so and so. Does anyone of you have a keris with "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser"? Please share the pictures to our beloved kerislovers for enriching knowledge of keris by watching images. I am eager to share with you the pictures of my sombro with "the world stretcher or rondo beser=...." soon after I can afford a new digicam. Sigh... I lost my digicam last month. warm regards, Usmen |
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22nd July 2007, 12:54 AM
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#10 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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THE OLD TRADITIONS,KNOWLEGE ,BELIEFS AND MAGIC OF MY ANCESTORS IS NO LONGER PART OF OUR CULTURE AND HAS NOT BEEN FOR MANY GENERATIONS. THERE ARE STILL SOME THINGS THAT MOSTLY COME AS DREAMS, PREMONITIANS AND FEELINGS OF FEAR, WARMTH,POWER, ECT. BUT THEY ARE JUST SHADES, WHICH ARE OFTEN DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.
I CAN READ BOOKS ON ANOTHER CULTURE AND GET A GLIMPSE OF THE CULTURE AND PERHAPS A BIT OF KNOWLEGE BUT WITHOUT BEING RAISED IN OR AT LEAST LIVING IN THE CULTURE FOR MANY YEARS I CAN NEVER ACHIVE THE SAME BELIEF OR UNDERSTANDING AS THEY CAN. SO IT SHOULD COME AS NO SURPRIZE THAT MY INTREPRETATION OF THE SOCIETY AND ITS CEREMONYS AND BELIEFS WOULD BE DIFFERENT FROM THEIRS. THIS IS NOT NECESSARLY A BAD THING IF I AM WILLING TO BE CORRECTED AND THEY ARE WILLING TO PERHAPS SEE WHY I THINK AS I DO AND NOT BE OFFENDED BY IT AND SHUT ME OUT. ALL MODERN CULTURES HAVE LOST A LOT OF THESE OLD BELIEFS, CEREMONYS AND THE ABILITYS TO ACCESS THE POWERS AND KNOWLEGE OF ANCIENT TIMES SO IT BECOMES CONFUSING AND OFTEN THEORYS AND BELIEFS ARE BASED ON ONLY PART OF THE OLD KNOWLEGE SO IT IS NOT RIGHT OR COMPLETE. A LOT OF BELIEFS HAVE COME UP DUE TO OLD WRITEINGS OR STORIES WHICH WERE FICTION MADE UP TRYING TO PAINT A POSITIVE AND PRETTY PICTURE OF OUR OLD ANCESTORS AND THEIR WAYS WITH NO REAL KNOWLEGE AND SOMETIMES IGNORING THE FACTS. IN PRIMATIVE TIMES THE PRODUCTION OF WEAPONS INVOLVED A LOT OF MAGICAL CEREMONY AND TECKNIQUE AND RITCUALS WERE SECRET AND ONLY SHARED WITH THE PRIVILEGED FEW. THIS SECRECY ALSO GAVE THE (IRON WORKERS FOR INSTANCE) POWER AND PRESTIGE THEY WERE THOUGHT TO HAVE SPECIAL POWERS AND KNOWLEGE AND WERE BOTH SOUGHT AFTER AND FEARED. STORIES OF THESE SUPERNATURAL POWERS ABOUND PEOPLE WHO CAN FORM METAL WITH THEIR BARE HANDS EITHER COLD OR MOLTEN AND HAD THE POWER TO PUT SPIRITS AND STRANGE POWERS INTO THE MYSTICAL ,ELEMENTAL METAL. THE IDEA THAT SOMETHING FROM THE SUN OR NOT OF THIS EARTH OR EVEN LIGHTNING HAS ALWAYS BEEN SEEN TO ADD SOME SPECIAL POWERS TO AN OBJECT. IT GOES BACK TO OUR EARLY DAYS WHEN MAN DID NOT KNOW MUCH OF HIS WORLD AND HOW IT WORKED SO EVERYTHING WAS MYSTERIOUS AND MAGICAL. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING WAS CREATED BY ONE POWERFUL CREATOR AND WE WILL FIND OUT MORE WHEN WE PASS FROM THIS LIFE. SCIENCE IS NOTHING EXALTED IT IS JUST MANS METHOD OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THE CREATOR MADE THINGS AND HOW THEY WORK. I HAVE TO LAUGH AT A SCIENTIST WHO FIGURES OUT ONE SMALL THING AND THEN SAYS HE HAS PROVED THERE IS NO CREATOR. IT IS LIKE A YOUNG CHILD FINDING OUT HOW TO OPEN A DOOR AND THEN THINKING HE IS THE RULER OF THE WORLD. WE HAVE ACESS TO ONLY OUR 5 SENSES WHICH I THINK DENIES US OUR FULL ABILITYS AND LIMITS WHAT WE CAN SEE OR LEARN. PERHAPS THIS IS FOR OUR OWN GOOD BUT AT TIMES I CAN SENSE THERE IS MORE HERE IN OUR WORLD THAN WE KNOW. THE SHAMEN OR MEDICINE MEN MAY HAVE HAD SOME WAYS TO EXPAND THEIR 5 SENSES OR TO PARTIALY USE SOME OTHERS WE DON'T KNOW OF TO HELP THEIR TRIBES. THE KERIS IS A BEAUTIFUL OBJECT FULL OF MYSTERY AS WELL AS A WEAPON. I LIKE TO MEDITATE AND EMPTY MY MIND AND FOLLOW THE PARMOR PATTERNS IN A BLADE. OFTEN I SEE THINGS I HAD NOT NOTICED AND A COUPLE OF TIMES I SAW THINGS THAT WHEN I LOOKED FOR AGAIN I COULD NEVER FIND. I FIND IT IS RELAXING AND IS A GREAT WAY TO GET TO KNOW A KERIS AND TO ENJOY IT MORE. I DO ATTEMPT TO FIND THAT "RIGHT MENTAL ATTITUDE" AT TIMES. I FIND A NICE QUIET PLACE ,THE BEST IS OUTSIDE. THEN I SIT AND TRY TO RELAX AND EMPTY MY MIND AND STRIP AWAY ALL THE MENTAL ARMOR AND TRIALS AND WORRIES OF LIFE AND TO GET TO THE STATE OF INNOCENCE IN WHICH WE WERE BORN. I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ACHIVE IT YET BUT PERHAPS I WILL GET THERE SOMEDAY WITH DICIPLINE AND AGE. 
Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd July 2007 at 04:40 PM. |
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25th July 2007, 08:25 AM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
I will try to find the exact meaning of "rondo beser". (For this time being, I'm still travelling between Yogya-Solo-Yogya to and fro. And I've met Marco -- our keris Italian friend -- in Yogyakarta. We stay in the same hotel in Tirtodipuran Yogyakarta but of course not the same room.) If I'm not mistaken, "rondo beser" is a bigger crack than "pamengkang jagat". And the literaly meaning of "rondo beser" is, "rondo" means "widow" and "beser" means "so often go to toilet". So, what is in a name? You may feel it. In my opinion, "rondo beser" has a little bit negative conotation. But "pamengkang jagat" has more positive meaning. So it depends on the person, from what side or perspective he see the phenomenon (the crack in the blade). This for the time being, my answer to you, Raden. After I come to Jakarta, I will search the more exact meaning of it. Anyway, I met your old friends in Yogyakarta, Raden. Your friend from Pametri Wiji Yogyakarta (the Yogyakarta Keris Association), are mentioning your name. Ganjawulung |
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29th July 2007, 04:13 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
This is just small additional notes on the specific term of "rondo beser" (widow that too often goes to toilet) you mentioned in your post. The term "rondo beser", is only used in a keris or kerises which have "sogokan" (one of two vertical niches in the sor-soran or the base of a keris). It is called "rondo beser" if the "sogokan" has perforated (not crack, but kind of hole in the sogokan). If you mentioned "dhapur sombro", it must be a keris which has no sogokan. Thus, the right term is not "rondo beser", but "pamengkang jagat" (crack in the middle of the base of keris, in vertical position...) Sombro, actually is the name of a female empu of Pajajaran, around 10th century. And not the name of dhapur. The forms of kerises made by "Ni mBok Sombro" (designation of this female empu), usually was very simple. (See Ensiklopedi Keris, Bambang Harsrinuksmo page 439) Keris without sogokan, but some of them (believed) usually has kind of "traces of finger press" along the blade... Some Javanese people -- according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo -- believed that kerises (many of them with the very simple in form and also in metal material) made by sombro have "invisible power"... Ganjawulung |
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