Interesting Chinese Jian sword

John · 7th December 2004, 11:42 AM

Nice looking Jian but must acknowledge I know very little about them although there's a fair bit of interest. Provenanced Jians from private collections posted at forums seems to be so few and far in between.

Here's a Jian (with the 7 "stars") which I know next to nothing about except that it has been in the hands of the last owner for the past 10 years. The metal decorations of the scabbard/handle appear to be covered with white and red coating which I have had difficulty removing.

RSWORD · 7th December 2004, 08:09 PM

Jim
I believe you are right on the money with this sword possibly belonging to a Taoist. The scabbard is nicely carved with auspicious symbols. I am adding some pics of some of the carving on the scabbard, as well as, some markings found on the scabbard. Can anyone translate? I think it could date as early as 1813 although the wood is in pristine condition.(the wood has shrunk a fair bit as the fittings were a bit loose and the handle is cracked on one side. A good sign of age.) Philip was kind enough to do the polish on the blade and to my pleasant surprise, it is the first of its exact kind that Philip has run across.

Dan
The graining is quite nice but do not despair on Dha. Andrew has a nice example with a blade in polish that reveals a nice watered pattern. Perhaps he could post pics.

John
Nice looking example. It looks proper as far as the fittings go and could well be a late 19th, early 20th century example.

fearn · 7th December 2004, 09:38 PM

Hi RSword,

Those symbols look like they belong to three of the eight immortals:
fan, for Han Chang Li
clappers, for Tsao, the immortal uncle
and sword, for Lu Tung bin.

If this holds, there should be an iron staff or wine vessel, a flute, a donkey or gourd, a lotus, and a basket of flowers somewhere on the sword or scabbard.

Is it Taoist? Maybe. The I Ching was used by Chinese Buddhists and Confucianists as well, and the eight immortals are, as I understand it, more folk saints than taoist deities.

Neat sword! As I recall, there is an eight immortals sword set (probably more than one), and you might want to learn it with this blade...

John · 8th December 2004, 12:46 AM

My layman's pinyin & translation of the characters:

Top characters read as Tung (together) Sheng (prosperous).
Bottom characters as Tai (great) He (river).

Perhaps someone more academic could decode deeper.

The 3 symbols are indeed of 3 of the 8 immortals Fearn mentioned. But I'm a little surprised your blade does not have the "7 stars", an important symbol for a Daoist if indeed the Jian has Daoist connection. The blade reminds me of one I had the priviledge of seeing in pictures a few years ago belonging to Bill Marsh, a very nice Jian and restored by the same restorer I think.

Nick Wardigo · 10th December 2004, 03:18 AM

Being a jian collector, I thought I'd chime in.

From experience, I associate this style of scabbard fittings to very late Qing (late 19th century to early 20th). Toward the end of the dynasty, the fittings tend to be more simple (at least on the user pieces). Your fittings appear to be substantial, something that isn't universally true.

The scabbard and handle carvings are a bit of a puzzle for me. I've seen similar handle carving on butterfly swords of the same era, but very rarely on a jian handle, and I don't think I've ever seen it on a scabbard. Very nice.

I would associate the scabbard and handle with the scabbard fittings, that is, I think they were put together at the same time. I think the crossguard and probably the pommel are from another set. This type of scabbard fitting is usually paired with a similarly simple crossguard. Coming from the other direction, this style of hilt fitting is usually paired with a similarly decorated scabbard fitting (like the example that John posted). I suspect the blade and hilt fittings are older (early to mid-1800s), and the weapon was re-scabbarded and re-handled in the early 1900s.

I agree that the decoration is likely Taoist, but I would not discount the possibility of Buddhist. While the references to the 8 Immortals certainly points to Taoism, I'd like to draw attention to the use of swastikas in the background pattern. While the swastika is also a Taoist symbol, I usually association this type of patterning with Buddhism; one often sees it on Korean and Vietnamese weapons.

The blade is quite nice. I'm not surprised about the lack of the seven stars. I don't have hard statistics or anything, but I find they show up on about half of the nicer blades I encounter.

fearn · 10th December 2004, 04:32 AM

I'm certainly not a jian collector--mine are simply for practicing.

Correct me if I'm wrong Nick, but aren't there six stars in the fittings on the scabbard and hilt? I'm fascinated by your idea that the guard and pommel are from another set, and I wonder if perhaps that's where the seventh star went.

I'd also like to quibble with something said earlier. Yes, the jian was a dueling sword, whereas the dao was more of a military saber (thinking of the regular one, not the infinite variants). Kumar Frantzis (a noted Taoist martial artist) stated that the jian was better in a 1-on-1 duel, whereas the dao was better in a 1-on-many melee. Don't know if he's right, but it makes some sense.

However, I think that the idea that the Taoists preferred the jian is because the tai chi jian art is so refined. If you look at Pakua chang, which has equally deep (if not deeper) taoist roots, you'll find that their greatest swordsmen all used the dao, although Pakua jian sets certainly exist. In other words, it takes all kinds.

Returning to this fine blade, I wonder if we're reading a bit much into the decorations. I keep remembering the jian that turned up on ebay a few years back, that had a working abacus built into the blade near the hilt. I think that, in both these cases, someone was willing to pay for the extra work on their swords, and in this case, they chose an eight immortals theme for whatever reason. Since there is at least one eight immortals jian set that I'm aware of, I'd speculate that the original owner of the blade simply liked the set, or some eight immortals style (there are a couple, including drunken styles).

F

Nick Wardigo · 11th December 2004, 12:37 AM

Fearn--

Actually, the cut-out decoration you're seeing on the scabbard fittings and hilt ferrule are coins, not stars. Take a look at the square hole inside the circle, indicative of ancient Chinese coins. To quote from "Symbols and Rebuses in Chinese Art" by Fang Jing Pei (Ten Speed Press, 2004, p. 46), "Coins have many symbolic meanings in Chinese culture, all of which have to do with wealth and riches." You see it crop up a lot. I currently own a Taoist ritual jian that has eight of these on its scabbard and hilt fittings.

I think the comment that Taoists preferred jian stems from the nature of jian fencing, which is typically more complex and requires a longer amount of time to master. To a Taoist, the extreme attention to an infinite number of details may be akin to a form of meditation. This takes jian practice outside the realm of combat (or rather, strictly combat) and into religious practice. From that perspective, it would be correct to say that Taoists preferred jian. I might add that any casual perusal of Taoist religious art will show Immortals, heroes, and deities typically using jian over other weapons (there are exceptions).

Rick--
You mentioned that "it is the first of its exact kind that Philip has run across." Could you elaborate on that? Are you referring to the carving on the scabbard, or some element of the blade? I only ask because whenever Phil says something like that, I tend to listen VERY closely.

7th December 2004, 11:42 AM	#1
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Jian Nice looking Jian but must acknowledge I know very little about them although there's a fair bit of interest. Provenanced Jians from private collections posted at forums seems to be so few and far in between. Here's a Jian (with the 7 "stars") which I know next to nothing about except that it has been in the hands of the last owner for the past 10 years. The metal decorations of the scabbard/handle appear to be covered with white and red coating which I have had difficulty removing. Attached Images Last edited by John; 7th December 2004 at 03:22 PM.

7th December 2004, 08:09 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	Jim I believe you are right on the money with this sword possibly belonging to a Taoist. The scabbard is nicely carved with auspicious symbols. I am adding some pics of some of the carving on the scabbard, as well as, some markings found on the scabbard. Can anyone translate? I think it could date as early as 1813 although the wood is in pristine condition.(the wood has shrunk a fair bit as the fittings were a bit loose and the handle is cracked on one side. A good sign of age.) Philip was kind enough to do the polish on the blade and to my pleasant surprise, it is the first of its exact kind that Philip has run across. Dan The graining is quite nice but do not despair on Dha. Andrew has a nice example with a blade in polish that reveals a nice watered pattern. Perhaps he could post pics. John Nice looking example. It looks proper as far as the fittings go and could well be a late 19th, early 20th century example. Attached Images

8th December 2004, 12:46 AM	#4
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	My layman's pinyin & translation of the characters: Top characters read as Tung (together) Sheng (prosperous). Bottom characters as Tai (great) He (river). Perhaps someone more academic could decode deeper. The 3 symbols are indeed of 3 of the 8 immortals Fearn mentioned. But I'm a little surprised your blade does not have the "7 stars", an important symbol for a Daoist if indeed the Jian has Daoist connection. The blade reminds me of one I had the priviledge of seeing in pictures a few years ago belonging to Bill Marsh, a very nice Jian and restored by the same restorer I think. Last edited by John; 8th December 2004 at 12:56 AM.

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7th December 2004, 09:38 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi RSword, Those symbols look like they belong to three of the eight immortals: fan, for Han Chang Li clappers, for Tsao, the immortal uncle and sword, for Lu Tung bin. If this holds, there should be an iron staff or wine vessel, a flute, a donkey or gourd, a lotus, and a basket of flowers somewhere on the sword or scabbard. Is it Taoist? Maybe. The I Ching was used by Chinese Buddhists and Confucianists as well, and the eight immortals are, as I understand it, more folk saints than taoist deities. Neat sword! As I recall, there is an eight immortals sword set (probably more than one), and you might want to learn it with this blade...

10th December 2004, 03:18 AM	#5
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Being a jian collector, I thought I'd chime in. From experience, I associate this style of scabbard fittings to very late Qing (late 19th century to early 20th). Toward the end of the dynasty, the fittings tend to be more simple (at least on the user pieces). Your fittings appear to be substantial, something that isn't universally true. The scabbard and handle carvings are a bit of a puzzle for me. I've seen similar handle carving on butterfly swords of the same era, but very rarely on a jian handle, and I don't think I've ever seen it on a scabbard. Very nice. I would associate the scabbard and handle with the scabbard fittings, that is, I think they were put together at the same time. I think the crossguard and probably the pommel are from another set. This type of scabbard fitting is usually paired with a similarly simple crossguard. Coming from the other direction, this style of hilt fitting is usually paired with a similarly decorated scabbard fitting (like the example that John posted). I suspect the blade and hilt fittings are older (early to mid-1800s), and the weapon was re-scabbarded and re-handled in the early 1900s. I agree that the decoration is likely Taoist, but I would not discount the possibility of Buddhist. While the references to the 8 Immortals certainly points to Taoism, I'd like to draw attention to the use of swastikas in the background pattern. While the swastika is also a Taoist symbol, I usually association this type of patterning with Buddhism; one often sees it on Korean and Vietnamese weapons. The blade is quite nice. I'm not surprised about the lack of the seven stars. I don't have hard statistics or anything, but I find they show up on about half of the nicer blades I encounter.

10th December 2004, 04:32 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm certainly not a jian collector--mine are simply for practicing. Correct me if I'm wrong Nick, but aren't there six stars in the fittings on the scabbard and hilt? I'm fascinated by your idea that the guard and pommel are from another set, and I wonder if perhaps that's where the seventh star went. I'd also like to quibble with something said earlier. Yes, the jian was a dueling sword, whereas the dao was more of a military saber (thinking of the regular one, not the infinite variants). Kumar Frantzis (a noted Taoist martial artist) stated that the jian was better in a 1-on-1 duel, whereas the dao was better in a 1-on-many melee. Don't know if he's right, but it makes some sense. However, I think that the idea that the Taoists preferred the jian is because the tai chi jian art is so refined. If you look at Pakua chang, which has equally deep (if not deeper) taoist roots, you'll find that their greatest swordsmen all used the dao, although Pakua jian sets certainly exist. In other words, it takes all kinds. Returning to this fine blade, I wonder if we're reading a bit much into the decorations. I keep remembering the jian that turned up on ebay a few years back, that had a working abacus built into the blade near the hilt. I think that, in both these cases, someone was willing to pay for the extra work on their swords, and in this case, they chose an eight immortals theme for whatever reason. Since there is at least one eight immortals jian set that I'm aware of, I'd speculate that the original owner of the blade simply liked the set, or some eight immortals style (there are a couple, including drunken styles). F

11th December 2004, 12:37 AM	#7
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Fearn-- Actually, the cut-out decoration you're seeing on the scabbard fittings and hilt ferrule are coins, not stars. Take a look at the square hole inside the circle, indicative of ancient Chinese coins. To quote from "Symbols and Rebuses in Chinese Art" by Fang Jing Pei (Ten Speed Press, 2004, p. 46), "Coins have many symbolic meanings in Chinese culture, all of which have to do with wealth and riches." You see it crop up a lot. I currently own a Taoist ritual jian that has eight of these on its scabbard and hilt fittings. I think the comment that Taoists preferred jian stems from the nature of jian fencing, which is typically more complex and requires a longer amount of time to master. To a Taoist, the extreme attention to an infinite number of details may be akin to a form of meditation. This takes jian practice outside the realm of combat (or rather, strictly combat) and into religious practice. From that perspective, it would be correct to say that Taoists preferred jian. I might add that any casual perusal of Taoist religious art will show Immortals, heroes, and deities typically using jian over other weapons (there are exceptions). Rick-- You mentioned that "it is the first of its exact kind that Philip has run across." Could you elaborate on that? Are you referring to the carving on the scabbard, or some element of the blade? I only ask because whenever Phil says something like that, I tend to listen VERY closely.