Circassian Weaponry

[janti]

Dear Ariel ,
You said ;
''Circassians served as mercenaries in Turkish military for ages and constituted substantial proportion of Egyptian Mamelukes.''.

What i am saying is they are never been mercenaries in Turkish army .All Circassians were not a Muslim . Mostly They have been forced to serving, and the others served for islamic relationship.

Firstly i should say i have no problem with Georgians , My disapproval is for why allways keep saying the other caucas nationalites cultural equipments like belongs to Georgians.Caucassia not only mean Georgia. The truth is when russian tsar set up Caucassian corps Thiblis he ordered to his army to wearing-using Circassian uniform. Actually Georgians have a traditional uniforms, belts and swords , but not a qama. Qama is originaly belong to Circassians uniforms.It could be thin ,thick, big ,small ,short or long its depends to masters art plesuare.

If we are talking about originality we must say this qama is Circassian origin but structered-copied in Trabzon , Georgia ect.
In Trabzon we knows to many master for dagger but not for qama.Thats not mean they cant do, they can do it but it could not be original.They can do also indian or persian daggers can we say Trabzon dagger to that persian dagger.Of course not, they are could be only well copied format. Thats what i mean.

And pls. excuse me for my wrong information about that small qama , i just sended the photos to Jankat Devrim he is the master of Circassians equipments .He says that small qama is unusual , probably made toy for young boys, there is no qama for ladys.

[ariel]

We are getting somewhere...
Again, Qama is undoubtedly of Circassian origin. From there it spread to Georgia and Daghestan. With thousands upon thousands of Caucasians ( Circassians included) fighting all around the Middle East, it penetrated to Turkey, Egypt , Balkans, Sudan, Arabia proper and Persia. In each place it acquired local characteristics and stopped being "Circassian". Thus, a straight dagger made in Trazon and decorated according to local tastes is no longer a Circassian Kindjal; it becomes Turkish.
The same is true about curved saber: originally of Central Asian origin, it mutated into unmistakably Indian Tulwar, Persian Shamshir, Turkish Kilij , Polish Karabela and a host of European cavalry sabers.
Finding a genuine Circassian Kindjal is a difficult task: due to exile and voluntary emigration, the local population dwindled to almost nothing and the manufacture of weapons almost ceased. Whatever old ones were left, they were recycled. And all kinds of mass-producing shops by Omarov, Guzunov, Koshtoyanz etc. took over......

[janti]

Dear Ariel ,we are agree in most case
In Turkiye lives 7.000.000 caucassian about 5.000.000 Adgyha and Abhazian Circas lives in different citys of Turkiye.And thousands of them has a qama from theyrs great grandfathers.In that case we cant say there is no original qama.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4755

The qama ( not small one )is on this photo is genunie Circassian qama.
In jordan to many diffrent decorated local taste qama you can find .But nobody calls them Jordanian qama or Caucasian qama they are only says Circassian qama nobody cares where its been made because the format is Circassian format.In circassia you can find diffrent size qama's its all depends of attack or war fighting in that consept.

By that reason no one could be sure about the qama made in Balkan or Caucassia.

What i am trying to do is, not forgetting the truth and originalities of nationalities cultur ,even they have been assimileted. Thats what i think is, humans duty to talk about reality.Pls. Just think about Red indians.To many different shape and size arrows red indians used.We couldnt call to if Red indians arrow made in Georgia this is a Georgian arrow.

Its plesuare for me to have a nice argument ,Thanks a lot for sharing some good information.

[ariel]

Yes, we do agree on the facts but not on interpretations.
The issue whether to classify a weapon based on its historical point of origin or on its actual place of manufacture ( with unavoidable cultural modifications) is a philosophical one, ie is a Yataghan still an Ottoman weapon even though it was made in Italy.
Rather like an age-old argument whether it is a blade or a handle that determines the ethno-cultural source , ie is a Shamshir still a Shamshir even though it sports a Tulwar handle.
Much ink had been spilled on both questions, and to no avail....
It is so nice to deal with Koras... Wait, which one is Tibetan and which one is Nepalese?

[janti]

Dear Ariel ,

''Yataghan still an Ottoman weapon'' ,''Shamshir'' ect.

You see they named by orginal names. When you say yataghan everone knows its a Ottoman weapon. So this names belong to original languages why qama is named kindjal ?

Why every one calls to yoghurt to yoghurt. You can make it even in your home, so why we are not calling to yoghurt salted stiff milk ? Or Arabs named Leben so why we are not using this name ?

''It is so nice to deal with Koras... Wait, which one is Tibetan and which one is Nepalese? ''
Kora is original name and you see what we are calling to them Senegalies kora ,Tibetan kora ,Nepalese kora ,ect.

If we are not using original name ( qama ) ,Isnt that better calling to Circassian kindjal ( qama ) made in Georgia or Balkan , or qama made in Georgia ,Balkan , Trabzon, ect.

Why i am sensitive on this seccuation is , just thinking after 100 years everyone goingto call kindjal, Balkan kindjal ,Georgian kindjal ect. But specially Georgian kindjal cause Georgians are Caucassian native .It will be, act unjustly to history.And this kind of mistakes helps to assimilation Circassian traditional cultur.

By that way, are we going to let assimilation of Native culturs ?

[Kiziria]

It seems to late to join into this discussion. But just incase Janti would come back, I want to say a few words about origin of caucasian daggers.
Dear Janti it is clear that you are patriot of your people and Circassian culture. It is very good. But you should study archeology and ethnography of caucasus and transcaucasia. I would advise you to find and read works on so called Coban or Koban archeological culture, Kolchian culture, Culture of Kura-Arax region. The point is that you will see that shapes of bronze blades dated thousands years before our time, are of similar and same shape as those carried by our grandfathers. And it is through all the caucasus.
Impossible to say who was the first to create them. No scientist or serious researcher would claim origin in Cirassia, or Kolchis or Iberia, or Armenia. But fact is those daggers were in use for thousands of years. Beside you should know that beside word "qama" , there are other words that mean certain type of dagger and their are certainly not of Circassia origin, for example georgian "satevari" , which is much older word and was used in medieval poetry and legends. Qama is foreign word for Georgians and appears in Georgia only in 18 century. It came with north caucasian weapon smiths that came to work in Tbilisi,capital of Georgia. Other people of Caucasus also have native names for dagger. I can speak for them as well if necessary.
Another fact I want to point out is that daggers in different Caucasian region has slight but important differences in shape, length and width. For example. Purely Eastern Georgian daggers are shorter,stronger and more rounded, that makes them more cutting and chopping than trusting weapon. And that reflects on style of fencing with daggers. Dear Janty world of caucasian weaponry is huge and open for studies.Trust me it is not as simple as you might imagine. Daggers were evolving in Caucasian regions and though might appear similar to untrained eye , are in fact have distinctions that could place each dagger's "origin" into Circassia, Georgia or Daghestan and so on.
My request is that before making claims about origin of caucasian dagger, please study some historic materials, approach this seriously please as it is very serious and sensitive topic for all Caucasian nations.

[ariel]

Interestingly, Elgood, in his monumental book on Indian arms mentions the sword called Chircas and defines it as a Circassian sword used by Uzbeks.
Was it a pra-ancestor of the Bukharan swords or Afghani shashkas?
Even more interesting, did Circassians serve in the Turkic military from the ancient Uzbekistan ( or what was then viewed as the land of Uzbeks), an ancient enemy of Persia?