Pics: Snake-like Curves

David · 7th June 2007, 02:49 PM

There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system.
I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface.

This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years.

Mans · 7th June 2007, 07:05 PM

Hi dear all....

I think everyone who posted in this thread are right and gave much contribution to talking about the keris. All opinions gave good contribution to learning the keris

. Everyone have own argumentation which thing right by them self or communities, also have own culture which different of each other, have different level of English language... etc, which perhaps can make some misunderstanding when write some opinion. And of course, every readers (active or not) can take a conclusion by them self too..

That because the keris sometimes feel so subjective. But these all shown that the keris is unique, mysterious, and always interesting to discuss, right ?

So, I do appreciate that Vikingsword forum gave special space of discussion for the keris by opening the "Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi

)

And at Waroeng Kopi, sometimes peoples talking about some good idea, good topic, but sometimes also happen some little disputes. And some time feel hard to keep stay at the center. But if any little disputes, I'm sure that everyone didn't mean it

So... I think the discussion can be continued by talking about the keris. I'm not a moderator, but if the topic of "Pics: Snake-like Curves" think enough, we can opening a new thread. Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? Or still any opinion or question regarding the keris which has luk like a snake

I just hope that every keris lovers (new comers or who think they has good experiences) can learn much and more knowledge regarding the keris from this Waroeng...

Regards,
Manshur HIDAYAT.

kai · 7th June 2007, 09:47 PM

Hello Pak Manshur,

Quote:

"Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi

)

Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2007, 10:46 PM

No, not really outlawed.

I think it was 1972 when Dutch spellings were replaced by English spellings, but there are a lot of problems with Javanese spellings.Using a modern keyboard, for instance the dotted "A" which has a sound like "O" but further back in the mouth, not at the front of the mouth. The word "ganja" is correctly spelt as "ganja",but with dots over the "A"'s---but you cannot put those dots there with a keyboard, so they become understood.

And it is pronounced like "gonjo", which means that probably most people spell it this way.

Doesn't stop with little things either---major towns and cities can be seen to be spelt in the old way, or the new way.

Its probably best not to get too tied up with spellings in Javanese, it is really a spoken language, and the speakers of it will often change spellings as well as pronunciations to suit themselves. The main thing is that the message be understood.

Mans · 7th June 2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Pak Manshur,
Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai

,
Yes right, but sSome old spelling (like U = OE) still used outside the formal writting, especially to talking about the old, antique object or past period, etc... Alan had explained regaring EYD (Ejaan Yang Diperbarui / new spelling of grammar).

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2007, 12:21 AM

Pak Manshur,

Yes, it is true that here we communicate in different levels of English, and this can lead to some confusion.

Because of this I will make this post as simple as I am able.

Cultural differences can cause people from different cultures to identify discussion at different levels as a "dispute". Speaking for myself, I cannot find any evidence of any dispute in any recent posts to this discussion group. All I can identify is civil discussion.

Pak Manshur, you have posed this question:-

" Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? "

Objective evaluation will show that neither of these things have been demonstrated.

What has been demonstrated is this:-

Pengging
In the opinion of some people, the form of luk found in tosan aji which could perhaps be classified as tangguh Pengging , does have the form shown in the photos that were posted.
This is a qualified statement.
Because of the high level of disagreement as to the exact form of a Pengging keris it is not possible to make a definitive statement in respect of the luk form.

Segaluh
Photos of a keris identified by the owner as tangguh Segaluh have been shown. Based upon what can be seen in these photos, it is probable that the pamor execution is competent, as is the execution of the iron work.
This is a qualified statement.
We cannot be positive that the keris is tangguh Segaluh, and we cannot be positive as to the quality of the material and the way in which it has been worked, because we can only see a picture of the keris. To be positive about these things we need to handle the keris.
Even if we handle the keris, and we agree that it is tangguh Segaluh, and we do determine that quality of both pamor and iron work is superior, we can only affix that opinion to the keris being examined, we cannot extend that opinion to any other keris of tangguh Segaluh.

However, in respect of the keris shown as a possible Daleman Sumenep you made the following statement:-
And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century.
This is a qualified statement.
By use of the the word "can", an element of doubt has been introduced. It "can" be Daleman Sumenep; it can also be something else.

This demonstrates exactly the point I have been trying to make:-

in discussion of tangguh carried out in writing, and using photographs, we cannot be definite in our opinions; our opinions must be qualified, in other words, the opinion when it is based on words or pictures must leave room for doubt.

When the keris is in one's possession, it would be permissable to state the tangguh, and anything else about the keris as one's opinion:- the statement is qualified by identifying the statement as opinion.

Opinion must not be presented as a statement of fact.

Pak Manshur, please do not regard what I have written as being in the nature of a dispute. The idea of "dispute" carries an element of heat, and an element of contention.There is no heat in my writing, and I am not in contention with you. I am discussing calmly and in a relaxed fashion a matter that must be clarified prior to any sensible discussion of tangguh being able to take place.

ganjawulung · 8th June 2007, 03:05 AM

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,

This is my sharing of the pictures I posted, for the time being. I will complete my responsibility later, after finishing my other business. This assumption of tangguh Segaluh, based on opinion which I got from such source as: the late Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo (once he saw this blade), and also in some occasion with Mr Haryono Guritno and even my other colleague of keris connoisseurs in Solo and Yogyakarta.

The bird eye view to recognize that the keris bears tangguh Segaluh, is the "protruding posture of the gandhik", sometimes extremely protruding. And Segaluh kerises is more protruding than any other styles of keris.

Also from bird eye view, if the segaluh keris with luks, never with "rengkol luk" (wavy luk). But with "luk kembo". Kembo means a kind of "fed up", or "lazy movement". Or say it, a snake in a lazy movement.

At this time being, I don't want to pose you the material argument. Otherwise you see it in your hand. Hopefully this 'first responsibility' will help your discussion. Believe me, I have no intention to cheat everybody. Or intent anyone to "buy this blade". Oh, no. This keris will be here for long, long, long time in the future..

Regards,
Ganjawulung (or some other spelling, Gonjawulung, or Gonjowulung. Whatever)

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2007, 03:31 AM

Ganja, what you have posted here is perfect for a post on tangguh.

You have effectively said:-

in the opinion of Bambang Harsinuksmo this keris is tangguh Segaluh.

I think you have also said:-

in my opinion this keris is tangguh Segaluh and I base this opinion on information obtained from Haryono Haryoguritno and other people with more knowledge of keris than I have.

Nobody could possibly object to this.

Incidentally, from what I can see in the pic, I'd call it Segaluh too, but if we are trying to create a format for future use, we must remain consistent.

7th June 2007, 02:49 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system. I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface. This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years. Last edited by David; 7th June 2007 at 07:39 PM.

8th June 2007, 03:05 AM	#7
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Segaluh Dear Alan, Mans, and All, This is my sharing of the pictures I posted, for the time being. I will complete my responsibility later, after finishing my other business. This assumption of tangguh Segaluh, based on opinion which I got from such source as: the late Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo (once he saw this blade), and also in some occasion with Mr Haryono Guritno and even my other colleague of keris connoisseurs in Solo and Yogyakarta. The bird eye view to recognize that the keris bears tangguh Segaluh, is the "protruding posture of the gandhik", sometimes extremely protruding. And Segaluh kerises is more protruding than any other styles of keris. Also from bird eye view, if the segaluh keris with luks, never with "rengkol luk" (wavy luk). But with "luk kembo". Kembo means a kind of "fed up", or "lazy movement". Or say it, a snake in a lazy movement. At this time being, I don't want to pose you the material argument. Otherwise you see it in your hand. Hopefully this 'first responsibility' will help your discussion. Believe me, I have no intention to cheat everybody. Or intent anyone to "buy this blade". Oh, no. This keris will be here for long, long, long time in the future.. Regards, Ganjawulung (or some other spelling, Gonjawulung, or Gonjowulung. Whatever)

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7th June 2007, 07:05 PM	#2
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hi dear all.... I think everyone who posted in this thread are right and gave much contribution to talking about the keris. All opinions gave good contribution to learning the keris . Everyone have own argumentation which thing right by them self or communities, also have own culture which different of each other, have different level of English language... etc, which perhaps can make some misunderstanding when write some opinion. And of course, every readers (active or not) can take a conclusion by them self too.. That because the keris sometimes feel so subjective. But these all shown that the keris is unique, mysterious, and always interesting to discuss, right ? So, I do appreciate that Vikingsword forum gave special space of discussion for the keris by opening the "Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi ) And at Waroeng Kopi, sometimes peoples talking about some good idea, good topic, but sometimes also happen some little disputes. And some time feel hard to keep stay at the center. But if any little disputes, I'm sure that everyone didn't mean it So... I think the discussion can be continued by talking about the keris. I'm not a moderator, but if the topic of "Pics: Snake-like Curves" think enough, we can opening a new thread. Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? Or still any opinion or question regarding the keris which has luk like a snake I just hope that every keris lovers (new comers or who think they has good experiences) can learn much and more knowledge regarding the keris from this Waroeng... Regards, Manshur HIDAYAT.

7th June 2007, 10:46 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	No, not really outlawed. I think it was 1972 when Dutch spellings were replaced by English spellings, but there are a lot of problems with Javanese spellings.Using a modern keyboard, for instance the dotted "A" which has a sound like "O" but further back in the mouth, not at the front of the mouth. The word "ganja" is correctly spelt as "ganja",but with dots over the "A"'s---but you cannot put those dots there with a keyboard, so they become understood. And it is pronounced like "gonjo", which means that probably most people spell it this way. Doesn't stop with little things either---major towns and cities can be seen to be spelt in the old way, or the new way. Its probably best not to get too tied up with spellings in Javanese, it is really a spoken language, and the speakers of it will often change spellings as well as pronunciations to suit themselves. The main thing is that the message be understood.

8th June 2007, 12:21 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Pak Manshur, Yes, it is true that here we communicate in different levels of English, and this can lead to some confusion. Because of this I will make this post as simple as I am able. Cultural differences can cause people from different cultures to identify discussion at different levels as a "dispute". Speaking for myself, I cannot find any evidence of any dispute in any recent posts to this discussion group. All I can identify is civil discussion. Pak Manshur, you have posed this question:- " Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? " Objective evaluation will show that neither of these things have been demonstrated. What has been demonstrated is this:- Pengging In the opinion of some people, the form of luk found in tosan aji which could perhaps be classified as tangguh Pengging , does have the form shown in the photos that were posted. This is a qualified statement. Because of the high level of disagreement as to the exact form of a Pengging keris it is not possible to make a definitive statement in respect of the luk form. Segaluh Photos of a keris identified by the owner as tangguh Segaluh have been shown. Based upon what can be seen in these photos, it is probable that the pamor execution is competent, as is the execution of the iron work. This is a qualified statement. We cannot be positive that the keris is tangguh Segaluh, and we cannot be positive as to the quality of the material and the way in which it has been worked, because we can only see a picture of the keris. To be positive about these things we need to handle the keris. Even if we handle the keris, and we agree that it is tangguh Segaluh, and we do determine that quality of both pamor and iron work is superior, we can only affix that opinion to the keris being examined, we cannot extend that opinion to any other keris of tangguh Segaluh. However, in respect of the keris shown as a possible Daleman Sumenep you made the following statement:- And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century. This is a qualified statement. By use of the the word "can", an element of doubt has been introduced. It "can" be Daleman Sumenep; it can also be something else. This demonstrates exactly the point I have been trying to make:- in discussion of tangguh carried out in writing, and using photographs, we cannot be definite in our opinions; our opinions must be qualified, in other words, the opinion when it is based on words or pictures must leave room for doubt. When the keris is in one's possession, it would be permissable to state the tangguh, and anything else about the keris as one's opinion:- the statement is qualified by identifying the statement as opinion. Opinion must not be presented as a statement of fact. Pak Manshur, please do not regard what I have written as being in the nature of a dispute. The idea of "dispute" carries an element of heat, and an element of contention.There is no heat in my writing, and I am not in contention with you. I am discussing calmly and in a relaxed fashion a matter that must be clarified prior to any sensible discussion of tangguh being able to take place.

8th June 2007, 03:31 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Ganja, what you have posted here is perfect for a post on tangguh. You have effectively said:- in the opinion of Bambang Harsinuksmo this keris is tangguh Segaluh. I think you have also said:- in my opinion this keris is tangguh Segaluh and I base this opinion on information obtained from Haryono Haryoguritno and other people with more knowledge of keris than I have. Nobody could possibly object to this. Incidentally, from what I can see in the pic, I'd call it Segaluh too, but if we are trying to create a format for future use, we must remain consistent.