Berber Sword with Spanish Motto

[Tim Simmons]

This is the thread. You can see what i say about the scabbard looking like latin American mechete.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...2&page=2&pp=30

[Tim Simmons]

I do not know if I am correct but I felt right from the start that the original thread starter does not look like African work.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Tim! Now I remember that thread and it seems your instincts were right on that piece. I think this thread was quite instrumental in my thoughts concerning these Berber sabres, and my thinking toward the piece shown in the thread. Originally I thought perhaps it was some type of variant and tried to rationalize the checkerboard pattern into possible Moroccan association.
On that particular sabre I do now agree that it is most probably from the regions shown in von Zonnefeld, however the distinct 'Berber' sabre dilemma remains as to thier true origins.

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Thank you all for your excellent replies. It seems that the origin of these sabres will be subject to a fascinating discussion until we are able to find a contemporary photo of a warrior wearing one. I can deffinitely see some justification in a Central American attribution - the blades, the motto on mine (most certainly not etched in the Maghreb), and the guardless hilts with horn scales not dissimilar to some Mexican swords and knives. While I will be quite happy with whatever it turns out to be, for the discussion's sake I am going to argue in favor of a Maghreb origin.
Searching the forum, I was able to find a shula, posted by ErnestoJuan, with hilt decoration quite similar to the decoration on the hilt of my example - note the little crosses. Here is also a close up of the hilt of a sword sold by Oriental Arms, and its inlay to me looks similar to the inlay found on the hilts of certain daggers from Mauritania. Although the Latin initials certainly complicate this theory.


Finally, I have attached a photo of a sword, Artzi had identified as originating from Spanish Morocco. Jim, is this what you were referring to as most likely coming from Cuba?

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Teodor!!!
The bottom sword is exactly what I was referring to! Although I have seen examples of these provenanced distinctly from Mexico, in a discussion with a distinguished author on Spanish Colonial weapons, he informed me that years ago these were identified as having come from Cuba during Spanish-American War.
I think it is important to remember how much maritime activity there was between the Maghreb, Cuba and the ports in Eastern Mexico as well as in Florida. These were all in the vast Spanish colonial sphere, so it becomes difficult to confine particular weapons to specific geographic area, except in cases where the volume of examples found would support the assessment.

Your observation on the hilt decoration similarity is well placed, and it is an important factor to focus on when investigating a weapon in this category. Since the blade is clearly a trade blade, and scabbards cannot be trusted in proper identification as they were often replaced or refurbished, the hilt is the best element for identifying the probable provenance of an ethnographic weapon.

I am with you in that I still feel reluctant to give up the possible Maghreb associations with these interesting sabres, and really do hope that others will come in with further discussion and more information. It would be great to see more examples of these also.
I am always curious about the purpose of the unusual profiling of the tip of these blades into what is termed a 'barbed point'. While these may eventually fall into a machete type denomination if the Latin American attribution becomes the likely source of these weapons, what practical purpose would such a point serve in actual use?

All the best,
Jim

[Marc]

Just as a side-note, because I'm as lost as you regarding these sabers, being also divided between the North of Africa and Central America. I have my own favourite hypothesis, but I'm afraid we need indeed some kind of provenenced source to go beyond the speculative stage...
But regarding the swords coming from Cuba... well, just making you know that the consesus here in Spain is that they are indeed colonial exemplars, but from the Philippine. They're not official patterns as such, but were purchased and worn by the colonial troops there, specially officers, as some of them are quite ellaborated, with silver guards and engravings in the shell... which is, by the way, an element of the hilt that is not always present in this kind of machetes, as also happens with the knucklebow. I've seen at least one blade marked as having been made at the the Toledo factory in 1852, which is not strange, as the Factory manufactured a lot of blades aside from official patterns for the Spanish Army, and a good deal of their production, specially at that time, went overseas.
The decoration in the blade is quite typical, also. Curiously enough, some exemplars featured a straight blade with a "inverse clip" point. Let me illustrate: