BUNTEL MAYAT

[ganjawulung]

[QUOTE=David I therefore consider it "living knowledge" as opposed to book knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....

[ganjawulung]

Dear David,

Maybe that's true. What is not true is, that I (We, the Javanese) am still "living" with keris. And not with books. We talk with books, because we must have at least something certain. Not just telling, telling, and story telling. But please, do as you like in this keris world.

Why more horrible? Just say "buntel mayat" to the Indonesian people. What Indonesian people know about the word "mayat" is only corpse. Even though he is Javanese. So please say it to them... "buntel mayat, buntel mayat" Sounds very horrible...

[David]

Ganja, i was not implying that you are not still "living" with keris. I was merely making a comparision of different types of knowledge and stating which one i prefer to place my bets on. Books are wonderful resources and i own and read as many books on keris as i can find. I am certainly not dismissing them as tools for study. But as we all know by now, books can be inaccurate at times and when one bases his research only on other books that might have the same inaccuracy we are like to continue repeating the mistake again and again.
Empu Suparman was a true ahli keris and very much respected for his keris making skills and knowledge. He passed some of his knowledge directly to Alan and for me that is "living" knowledge. The source of the information in the books you have quoted is not so clear.
As has been stated and i believe acknowledged by you as well, keris terms are almost invariable Javanese, not Indonesian, so i find the meaning of the word "mayat" in Indonesian to be inconsequential to the understanding of the meaning of the pamor name. We are not saying "buntel mayat" to just any Indonesian on this forum, we are saying it to keris collectors and enthusiasts who understand that these words are derived from the Javanese language. Therefore the meaning should in fact be less horrible.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I was just about finished, but after reading Ganja's latest post I felt I needed to comment on a couple things that he wrote, however, this is the last one---I swear it!

Hear that Ganja?

The floor is yours. You can have the last word. Whatever you care to say about buntels and mayits and mayats I will not reply to.

As for the tomatoes David, I fear you have missed the deep philosophical intent of this seemingly simple little ditty. What it is really saying is that we are all unique and that there is no one way nor one answer to anything. This being so there can be no right and no wrong order for the words to the song.Back to front? Front to back? Meaningless, as all things are one and one is everything---split a piece of wood------, lift a stone-----.(Gospel of Thomas)

The true meaning of all those tomatoes and potatoes and oysters and bananas is that there are many roads to God, but only one God. God gives us the tomatoes and so on, but it is our free choice to determine what we do with the tomatoes.Do we eat them all at once---or do we make them last? Savour them separately?Or do we use them to make a curry? Big decision, but one that we are free to make, and no matter if we make a curry, or sample the gifts of God separately, they still sustain life. You see? More than one answer to any question.

And do not forget the pyjamas, brother David. God invented pyjamas so we would not be led into temptation. Ever seen a woman in pyjamas around about bedtime? Try it some time. Instant birth control. As for wearing them yourself---well, its easier just to roll over and go to sleep.But God in his wisdom also gave us a remedy for those pestilential pyjamas. Yes brother David, he gave us laughter---however you wish to pronounce it. Which is something you really need sometimes, because if you couldn't laugh at things, you'd cry in frustration.


Dear Ganja,

I accept that you may not have heard the term "buntel mayat", but Empu Suparman Supawijaya had heard it, and he claimed that this was the correct name for the pamor motif that is now known as "buntel mayit".

Put as simply as I can :- Pak Parman said that the pamor name "buntel mayit" was incorrect, and that it was really "buntel mayat".

As for how this may sound to your ears, I understand fully your distaste, whether you hear "buntel mayat", or "buntel mayit".

In linguistics, the recognised prime reference on the Old Javanese language is the Old Javanese -English (also Old Javanese-Indonesian) dictionary produced by P.J. Zoetmulder and S.O. Robson. The word "mayit" does not appear in this dictionary.

To establish when the name "Setra Ganda Mayit" was first used, one would need to research the history of the wayang to identify the literary source where this name first appeared.
Regretably, we cannot take something as we see it today, and assume that it was the same yesterday, or 500 years ago.

The transition from "mayat" to "mayit" in respect of the pamor motif may be understood by the association of ideas and the Javanese propensity for playing with words. The same, or even a similar association of ideas does not exist with dhapur.


There is no "buntel" in Old Javanese, no "bungkus", no "mayit", and no "mayat" ( in a sense able to be linked to Modern Javanese).
Clearly the pamor has been given its present name, be that buntel mayat, or buntel mayit, since the 17th century. If it existed prior to the 17th century it had a different name.
But perhaps it did not exist prior to the 17th century, in which case it may be regarded as a new pamor (after 1650).If it is indeed a new pamor, then this opens a whole new line of discussion---but I'm not going to go there.

As to why this pamor name uses "buntel", rather than "bungkus", I have no idea, however, I would make the point that there is a shade of difference in the meanings of these two words.

But be that as it may, the matter that has been under discussion has not been why certain things did not happen, nor why certain things did happen.

The matter under discussion has been firstly the meaning of the word "mayat", and secondly the correct name for a particular pamor.

My initial post was generated by some private correspondence which I recieved requesting clarification on the correct name of the pamor. This correspondence was in turn generated by a discussion in another thread which apparently caused a good deal of confusion amongst people who do not understand either Indonesian or Javanese.

I believe I have achieved my objective of clarification for those people who approached me privately.

I now have no further interest in this discussion. I do not regard this discussion as a contest, nor a point scoring competition, I really do not care what anybody may call this particular pamor. I am merely sharing knowledge that is in my possession. Accept it, or reject it, either way it makes no difference to me.

Those who wish to believe that the correct name of the pamor motif we have been discussing is "buntel mayit" are perfectly at liberty to so believe.

Those who wish to believe that the correct name of this pamor motif is "buntel mayat", are equally at liberty to so believe.

And those who were confused as to how the word "mayat" is to be understood should no longer be confused.

[ganjawulung]

What I've learned from this hot discussion? Appreciation. People out there still take care of this keris world. While here, in the keris country, some people toss those things to the rubbish...

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for the tomatoes David, I fear you have missed the deep philosophical intent of this seemingly simple little ditty. What it is really saying is that we are all unique and that there is no one way nor one answer to anything. This being so there can be no right and no wrong order for the words to the song.Back to front? Front to back? Meaningless, as all things are one and one is everything---split a piece of wood------, lift a stone-----.(Gospel of Thomas)

Nope, didn't miss it mate...that's why the little winking emoticon was there.

[Pangeran Datu]

Aaww

Hi all,

I found this thread interesting because it repeats a theme I have encountered numerous times, both here and elsewhere: a debate with no agreement.
It reminds me of an 'Eddy': going round in circles, dissipating energy but does no useful work (j/k)

With regard to the original post: the term 'Buntel Mayat' must be seen in the context of its inception with the advent of that damascene pattern.
As I have seen little evidence of this presented here so far, everybody may be right or wrong.
For instance, no one has put forward any credible date for its advent, from which we may be able to 'guesstimate' the correct term and its meaning.
Thus, I could be just as right as anyone else, or even more so, if I were to say that the correct term for the above damascene pattern is:

BUNTAL MAYAT

buntal = alternating 'colours'
mayat = intentional, from ayat = intend

Regarding the use of the Javanese language/words for terms in kerisology: YES and NO.
Depends whether the aspect/item was created in a Javanese region (even in Java, there are other cultures/languages besides Javanese, some a lot older than Javanese).
Unless, of course, a uniform standard has been developed which requires the use of Javanese and the aspect/item was created since the advent of that standard.

Cheers.
Aaww

[David]

Thanks for adding some more water to the eddy Pangeran.

[David]

I would also add Pangeran that just because two parties do not reach agreement in any particular debate in no way indicates that "no useful work" has been done. This has been an extremely interesting and informative discussion for me. Just because concensus isn't reached between the two major debating parties doesn't mean that either party hasn't had an influence on others on the forum. Some, like yourself, may even form a third or fourth opinion on the matter. Does this make the discussion "useless"?
Once again i would like to thank both Ganja and Alan for their cotribution on this thread.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

... I found this thread interesting because it repeats a theme I have encountered numerous times, both here and elsewhere: a debate with no agreement.
It reminds me of an 'Eddy': going round in circles, dissipating energy but does no useful work (j/k)

With regard to the original post: the term 'Buntel Mayat' must be seen in the context of its inception with the advent of that damascene pattern.
As I have seen little evidence of this presented here so far, everybody may be right or wrong.
For instance, no one has put forward any credible date for its advent, from which we may be able to 'guesstimate' the correct term and its meaning.
Thus, I could be just as right as anyone else, or even more so, if I were to say that the correct term for the above damascene pattern is:

BUNTAL MAYAT

buntal = alternating 'colours'
mayat = intentional, from ayat = intend

Regarding the use of the Javanese language/words for terms in kerisology: YES and NO.
Depends whether the aspect/item was created in a Javanese region (even in Java, there are other cultures/languages besides Javanese, some a lot older than Javanese).
Unless, of course, a uniform standard has been developed which requires the use of Javanese and the aspect/item was created since the advent of that standard.

Cheers.
Aaww

Do it need agreement? I think no one could force an agreement, on a thing that never "known" before. I mean, never heard before the name "buntel mayat" instead of "buntel mayit" in the (Javanese keris) community. What they just know is "buntel mayit" from time to time. One can claim that he is "legitimate" to ensure people that "buntel mayit" is actually "salah" (wrong). The right word is "buntel mayat". Is there any credible source for that? Instead of "oral credible source" (with respect of Empu Suparman).

But of course, you all can claim that "buntel mayat" is actually the right word. Just wore the pyjama in the your bed room (as Alan said) in order to birth-control... Of course you may, and it is free. You may use it. But whether the community will use it, than it will be in the hand on the community. The problem is, in Java, they have been long, long, living with this term of pamor. And it is no problem: some people still like the "horrible" pamor -- regarding the name of "buntel mayit" -- but some even feel, it sounds good: "buntel mayit". People in Java, like also the "terrorizing" thing. They like "debus" (a certain culture in Banten, West Jawa) that people slicing the "parang" (a kind of sword) in his body, but they are harmless. Some Javanese people like playing danger things. So? No problem if "brave people" wear "horrifying thing" like pamor "buntel mayit". Why not?

Both words, are not wrong and are not true. Both words can be used, it depends on the user's stand point. You may be true, if "buntel mayat" correlates to the method of manufacture -- without a core -- bar twisted, and then forged flat. But you must understand too, that Javanese is usually live more with "rasa" (feeling, personal experience, with heart) than with "logic". They are unlogic? In some cases, and many cases: yes. They believe what they feel, and sometimes they don't believe what people must do in logical way. (Some of our people claim" "westerners are talking with logic, while Javanese with "rasa" -- not exactly "feeling" in English word. Maybe "passion", correct me if I'm wrong).

People in Java, nowadays (young keris lover) they like much the pamor "buntel mayit". They don't even bother too much about the bad angsar or bad tuah. Even, having a keris with a "buntel mayit" pamor, is fascinating to them. (Look at my keris friend, Gus Im -- the maker of punk rocker keris, he likes very much "buntel mayit" pamor). Because, they understand that in the Javanese tradition, sometimes a habitude derived from "bad experience" in the past, that such 'beautiful' pamor to be called as bad names "buntel mayit" or "corpse wrapping". Is it the wrong word for such wrapping pamor? Of course not.

Once again, sometimes Javanese people more like playing with "rasa" than "logic" like western people. Are they unlogic? Yeaah, maybe. Sometimes people need to feel, not just to think...
Anyway, I take positive thing out of this discussion. For sure...

Ganjawulung