Is it Raja Gundala?

David · 2nd May 2007, 06:34 PM

Sorry Brekele, i will do my best.

Simply put, i still think this last keris you have posted is a fairly recent one. You do not. That is OK, we all believe what we will.

I am still curious where you think this blade was made. Lombok, Bali, Jawa, Madura...??? Pasikutan is the length of the keris so it is not from there.

Tangguh is a system meant for high level Jawa keris. I don't think it can be properly applied to your keris. Even so, Nom-Noman is a fairly recent tangguh.
When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem? If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money. Ask yourself (don't tell us

)how much you paid for it.
I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings.

brekele · 3rd May 2007, 08:05 AM

When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem?

Dave, I told you before, I was also suspicion when first time I saw it because never see keris blade like this before.

If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money.

Dave, I bought this blade from a friend who dont know much about keris. But he know if a keris is old or new, that's all. He is more a keris villages hunter in Lombok, And sell keris he got to those local keris collectors/big dealers.

Ask yourself (don't tell us

)how much you paid for it.

Of course I won't tell you again, no more mistakes for twice.
And I do not need to ask my self for price of this kind of blade, because I deal with a right guy and fair/perfect price.
Now, this keris is sold for fair price also.
Actually, there are two pieces of this kind of blade from my friend. The other one is smaller also with ada ada's luk shape. He got those blades from a big balinese (farmer) family in Lombok.

I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings.

[/QUOTE]

Yes yes Dave, I will ask you something because some tools in your forum stil confused me. But I will try to find out first before I ask you.

Dave, sorry for my English a bit confused you.
I try to correct it.

It's not from Pasikutan but according Pasikutan (i hope better now).
Pasikutan= showing character of keris in every era/tangguh.

Hi Alan, how are you today?

Hi P.Datu, how are you today?

Hi Alam, long time no see? Are you stil meditation or learn those malay's song?
hmmm...Siti Nurhalisa had good songs

David · 3rd May 2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brekele

Yes yes Dave, I will ask you something because some tools in your forum stil confused me. But I will try to find out first before I ask you.

Yes, please fell free...though i am still learning some of thes etools myself.

Don't worry, if i don't know how something works Rick will for sure.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2007, 08:57 PM

I have so far stayed out of this discussion, principally because I cannot see much point to it. However, right now it seems to be going in circles, so I will say a word or two.

When I see a picture of a blade, especially an internet picture, what I see is only form.

I know that I cannot rely on the colour I see; I have no idea as to its weight, its texture, its topographic relief. I can sometimes get some sort of an idea of the quality and style of workmanship, but not often.

From what I can see on the computer screen, all I can really trust is the form of the blade.

The blade that is being discussed appears to be a fairly large blade with a twist pamor and some unusual features .

The pesi is distorted and distressed.

Overall condition appears to be good with some minor distress.

We know that keris culture in Lombok is not so deeply entrenched in formal standards as it is in Jawa and Bali.

We know that the people of Lombok often have a preference for blades which display unusual features.

We know that this twist pamor which on Lombok is called "tambangan badung" is highly favoured by the people of Lombok.

On the face of it, this keris could well be an original Lombok blade.

However.

The point at which the pesi enters the gonjo appears to display the characteristic decline of current era keris with a Madura heritage.

The pesi is extremely distressed, far too much so for normal aging.

We know that the Madura craftsmen use published photos as source material for new creations.

We know that it is easier to sell a keris that is a little bit out of the ordinary in form, irrespective of quality of execution.

In Djelengga we can find pictures of Lombok keris showing similar features to the features of the keris under discussion.

We have been told how and where the keris was sourced, but this must be disregarded for the same reasons that we must disregard all undocumented stories when we undertake an objective assessment.

To sum up:- this is a keris with some unusual features which might be a recent creation, and equally might be an original Lombok keris, but upon the evidence presented which is only a series of internet pictures, I for one am not able to form an opinion either way.

May I suggest that we simply acknowledge that this is a rather unique keris , and even though the workmanship is fairly shoddy, and condition does leave something to be desired, it is worthy of collection if for no other reason than its previously mentioned unique features.

brekele · 4th May 2007, 08:13 AM

Hi Alan, thank you for your fair and educate explanations for this blade's subject.
I appreciate for it. Niiiiiiiiiiiice!

hmmm...Alan? Alan? hmm...

Alan? hhmmmm....
Alan, your name is remind me a western man sitting among those Lombok's
antiques dealers and explain something to them.
Uhh! back again in Bali 12 - 15 years ago.

aaahh, I wish the western men before is the men who just..................
...............................
Uuuuh, Niiiiiiiiiiice

.

Again, Thank you Alan.

BREKELE.

David · 4th May 2007, 01:53 PM

Brekele, i am glad you were able to follow and understand Alan's detailed explanation, especially since it was in essence a longer and more detailed explanation of my own veiwpoint. Your English must be getting better.

BTW, though i didn't say it before, i also think this keris to be "worthy of collection" inspite of it's problems.

brekele · 5th May 2007, 07:39 AM

Your English must be getting better.

Dave, I just hope that my English is getting better, That's why I want always
to look/read at dictionary again. But honestly is hard. Because my head
full/mix up with 3 other languages beside Indonesian and Jawa languages.
And now Deutsch is even harder than English for me, 5 years I learn but
come up nothing.

Dave, thank you for hang out with me in last moment in this subject.
I wish someday we can met somewhere on beautiful Lombok Island, Bali or
Jawa .Wherever you want to chose those 3 Islands, and talk about

ROCK N' KRIS

and drink coconut's water.

Again, Thank you Dave.
BREKELE

3rd May 2007, 08:05 AM	#2
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem? Dave, I told you before, I was also suspicion when first time I saw it because never see keris blade like this before. If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money. Dave, I bought this blade from a friend who dont know much about keris. But he know if a keris is old or new, that's all. He is more a keris villages hunter in Lombok, And sell keris he got to those local keris collectors/big dealers. Ask yourself (don't tell us )how much you paid for it. Of course I won't tell you again, no more mistakes for twice. And I do not need to ask my self for price of this kind of blade, because I deal with a right guy and fair/perfect price. Now, this keris is sold for fair price also. Actually, there are two pieces of this kind of blade from my friend. The other one is smaller also with ada ada's luk shape. He got those blades from a big balinese (farmer) family in Lombok. I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings. [/QUOTE] Yes yes Dave, I will ask you something because some tools in your forum stil confused me. But I will try to find out first before I ask you. Dave, sorry for my English a bit confused you. I try to correct it. It's not from Pasikutan but according Pasikutan (i hope better now). Pasikutan= showing character of keris in every era/tangguh. Hi Alan, how are you today? Hi P.Datu, how are you today? Hi Alam, long time no see? Are you stil meditation or learn those malay's song? hmmm...Siti Nurhalisa had good songs Last edited by brekele; 3rd May 2007 at 08:23 AM.

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2nd May 2007, 06:34 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry Brekele, i will do my best. Simply put, i still think this last keris you have posted is a fairly recent one. You do not. That is OK, we all believe what we will. I am still curious where you think this blade was made. Lombok, Bali, Jawa, Madura...??? Pasikutan is the length of the keris so it is not from there. Tangguh is a system meant for high level Jawa keris. I don't think it can be properly applied to your keris. Even so, Nom-Noman is a fairly recent tangguh. When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem? If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money. Ask yourself (don't tell us )how much you paid for it. I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings.

3rd May 2007, 08:57 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I have so far stayed out of this discussion, principally because I cannot see much point to it. However, right now it seems to be going in circles, so I will say a word or two. When I see a picture of a blade, especially an internet picture, what I see is only form. I know that I cannot rely on the colour I see; I have no idea as to its weight, its texture, its topographic relief. I can sometimes get some sort of an idea of the quality and style of workmanship, but not often. From what I can see on the computer screen, all I can really trust is the form of the blade. The blade that is being discussed appears to be a fairly large blade with a twist pamor and some unusual features . The pesi is distorted and distressed. Overall condition appears to be good with some minor distress. We know that keris culture in Lombok is not so deeply entrenched in formal standards as it is in Jawa and Bali. We know that the people of Lombok often have a preference for blades which display unusual features. We know that this twist pamor which on Lombok is called "tambangan badung" is highly favoured by the people of Lombok. On the face of it, this keris could well be an original Lombok blade. However. The point at which the pesi enters the gonjo appears to display the characteristic decline of current era keris with a Madura heritage. The pesi is extremely distressed, far too much so for normal aging. We know that the Madura craftsmen use published photos as source material for new creations. We know that it is easier to sell a keris that is a little bit out of the ordinary in form, irrespective of quality of execution. In Djelengga we can find pictures of Lombok keris showing similar features to the features of the keris under discussion. We have been told how and where the keris was sourced, but this must be disregarded for the same reasons that we must disregard all undocumented stories when we undertake an objective assessment. To sum up:- this is a keris with some unusual features which might be a recent creation, and equally might be an original Lombok keris, but upon the evidence presented which is only a series of internet pictures, I for one am not able to form an opinion either way. May I suggest that we simply acknowledge that this is a rather unique keris , and even though the workmanship is fairly shoddy, and condition does leave something to be desired, it is worthy of collection if for no other reason than its previously mentioned unique features.

4th May 2007, 08:13 AM	#5
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi Alan, thank you for your fair and educate explanations for this blade's subject. I appreciate for it. Niiiiiiiiiiiice! hmmm...Alan? Alan? hmm... Alan? hhmmmm.... Alan, your name is remind me a western man sitting among those Lombok's antiques dealers and explain something to them. Uhh! back again in Bali 12 - 15 years ago. aaahh, I wish the western men before is the men who just.................. ............................... Uuuuh, Niiiiiiiiiiice . Again, Thank you Alan. BREKELE.

4th May 2007, 01:53 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Brekele, i am glad you were able to follow and understand Alan's detailed explanation, especially since it was in essence a longer and more detailed explanation of my own veiwpoint. Your English must be getting better. BTW, though i didn't say it before, i also think this keris to be "worthy of collection" inspite of it's problems.

5th May 2007, 07:39 AM	#7
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Your English must be getting better. Dave, I just hope that my English is getting better, That's why I want always to look/read at dictionary again. But honestly is hard. Because my head full/mix up with 3 other languages beside Indonesian and Jawa languages. And now Deutsch is even harder than English for me, 5 years I learn but come up nothing. Dave, thank you for hang out with me in last moment in this subject. I wish someday we can met somewhere on beautiful Lombok Island, Bali or Jawa .Wherever you want to chose those 3 Islands, and talk about ROCK N' KRIS and drink coconut's water. Again, Thank you Dave. BREKELE