Stone club.

Tim Simmons · 22nd March 2007, 07:57 AM

It is some kind of bark.

inveterate · 22nd March 2007, 11:45 AM

Tim, I understand you have the piece in your hands and we are just looking at pictures, but could the binding be some sort of Reed as opposed to Bark ? Rod

Tim Simmons · 22nd March 2007, 05:29 PM

I am almost certain it is a bark binding. Arranging to view and take pictures is no problem as long as they are for my own research and not for publication. Would showing pictures here be considered publication? Perhaps Andrew would know? Anyway a visit to the research center is a necessary preliminary to select the examples to view. I will try and find time to make the first visit as soon as possible hopefully next month sometime. It is also FREE

fearn · 24th March 2007, 03:07 AM

Hi Tim,

Sorry I'm not responding faster, but work takes precedence and I don't currently have a good library nearby to get the images from.

Basically, I know a few things about Oceanic weapons. I also know that it's fairly difficult to get good pictures of those weapons on line, and now that I'm not near a world-class university library, I don't have the access to the old ethnographic reports that I used to have.

That said...

Basically, the club's fairly primitively made, in the sense that it's asymmetric (lumpy). If it is an old Oceanic piece, especially one made for war, I would expect a much higher standard of worksmanship. As you undoubtedly know, artistry was an important an integral part of making a good weapon. That's my main problem with the idea that this is an old ethnographic club. It's not artistic, and in fact, a teenager could have easily made it.

Personally, I'm perfectly willing to believe that the wrapping is bark. It could easily be fig bark (from Australia), or linden bark (from Europe), or hickory bark (from the US), or any of a number of other possibilities. There are a number of trees that produce bark tough enough to make cordage from, and unfortunately, they are not confined to one climatic zone or one continent.

There's a lab in Madison, Wisconsin that could easily identify the wood and perhaps the bark, and there are geology labs in many universities that could probably ID the rock to location. However, each of these tests is somewhat destructive and probably costly. Whether it is worth it in this case I can't tell, but it is technically possible to determine where the materials came from.

Hope this helps,

F

Tim Simmons · 24th March 2007, 11:52 AM

Hello fearn,

I do not think I shall pursue it quite as far as a Bio Lab. I shall go to the museum to investigate Biro-Biro forms, bird head formed clubs, flint nodule heads.
Here is the rub, I see a great deal of artistry. Did I qualify as an artist? I would like to think I did so would my customers. Come up and see my etchings.
A powerful objet trouve. The halft has been thoughtfully selected and the construction, contrary to just a glance at the pictures, is very sensitive so as to make the whole thing feel good and move with ease. In real space the thing has a powerful presence. It is even possible that hitting people was not the main function. I do not think the people in question had primitive art concepts either. I might just be going completely DADA.

I can upload pictures of many images of clubs and adzes of basically the same construction sadly not one just the same as this one. They were indeed most likely made by relatively young people. Would showing pictures here be considered publishing?

Tim Simmons · 24th March 2007, 08:37 PM

The power of the objet trouve is with us all the time. This is from today's Guardian a British national newspaper. This image is deep within the western worlds Psyche.
So I really do not see any problem with a flint stone looking like a birds head or skull, or fitting a cultural image in the least. Especially when dealing with an animistic society where the forms are of known and recorded significance. Just look at the first Biro-Biro stones at the start of the thread.

fearn · 25th March 2007, 09:17 PM

I have to agree about found art, Tim--and thanks for the parsnip pic.

josh stout · 26th March 2007, 05:32 PM

I grew up in England playing with flint and occasionally trying to make something with it. The stone looks exactly like English flint. It could well be from somewhere else, but the color and shape seem very familiar to me.
Josh

fearn · 30th December 2009, 09:33 PM

Privet. Hmmmm. Interesting finding. I don't see a lowland tropical Ligustrum species on the list yet, so I'm not buying Torres Strait Islands. Without testing the bark binding (hey, why not disassemble it completely and test the rock head too?

) I think the best guess is that the handle came out of someone's hedge or weed patch.

Great that you're doing this research, Tim. At least, now we know where to go when we have these types of questions next time.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 31st December 2009, 02:08 PM

What does the Australian Privet Hawk Moth grub eat?

fearn · 31st December 2009, 03:53 PM

Ummmmmm, the privet hawk moth (Psilogramma menephron) caterpillars eat members of the families Bignoniaceae and Oleaceae, including "olive trees (Olea europaea, OLEACEAE), but is perhaps most often found in suburbia on privet (Ligustrum vulgare, OLEACEAE ), jasmine (Jasminum officinale, OLEACEAE ), and Australian native olive (Olea paniculata, OLEACEAE)" (ref). You were perhaps expecting that because it is found in the tropical Pacific, therefore privet is found there too?

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2010, 02:51 PM

F, are you stating that there are no Australasia Ligustrum, native Privets or related species? Dr Gasson did say "closest anatomical match". Perhaps you have access to better examples to match the results too? If so that would greatly help your most learned contributions so far to the thread.

24th March 2007, 11:52 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Hello fearn, I do not think I shall pursue it quite as far as a Bio Lab. I shall go to the museum to investigate Biro-Biro forms, bird head formed clubs, flint nodule heads. Here is the rub, I see a great deal of artistry. Did I qualify as an artist? I would like to think I did so would my customers. Come up and see my etchings. A powerful objet trouve. The halft has been thoughtfully selected and the construction, contrary to just a glance at the pictures, is very sensitive so as to make the whole thing feel good and move with ease. In real space the thing has a powerful presence. It is even possible that hitting people was not the main function. I do not think the people in question had primitive art concepts either. I might just be going completely DADA. I can upload pictures of many images of clubs and adzes of basically the same construction sadly not one just the same as this one. They were indeed most likely made by relatively young people. Would showing pictures here be considered publishing? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 24th March 2007 at 06:09 PM. Reason: spelling spellign

24th March 2007, 08:37 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	The power of the objet trouve is with us all the time. This is from today's Guardian a British national newspaper. This image is deep within the western worlds Psyche. So I really do not see any problem with a flint stone looking like a birds head or skull, or fitting a cultural image in the least. Especially when dealing with an animistic society where the forms are of known and recorded significance. Just look at the first Biro-Biro stones at the start of the thread. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 24th March 2007 at 10:06 PM.

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22nd March 2007, 07:57 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	It is some kind of bark.

22nd March 2007, 11:45 AM	#2
inveterate Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 58	Tim, I understand you have the piece in your hands and we are just looking at pictures, but could the binding be some sort of Reed as opposed to Bark ? Rod

22nd March 2007, 05:29 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I am almost certain it is a bark binding. Arranging to view and take pictures is no problem as long as they are for my own research and not for publication. Would showing pictures here be considered publication? Perhaps Andrew would know? Anyway a visit to the research center is a necessary preliminary to select the examples to view. I will try and find time to make the first visit as soon as possible hopefully next month sometime. It is also FREE

24th March 2007, 03:07 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, Sorry I'm not responding faster, but work takes precedence and I don't currently have a good library nearby to get the images from. Basically, I know a few things about Oceanic weapons. I also know that it's fairly difficult to get good pictures of those weapons on line, and now that I'm not near a world-class university library, I don't have the access to the old ethnographic reports that I used to have. That said... Basically, the club's fairly primitively made, in the sense that it's asymmetric (lumpy). If it is an old Oceanic piece, especially one made for war, I would expect a much higher standard of worksmanship. As you undoubtedly know, artistry was an important an integral part of making a good weapon. That's my main problem with the idea that this is an old ethnographic club. It's not artistic, and in fact, a teenager could have easily made it. Personally, I'm perfectly willing to believe that the wrapping is bark. It could easily be fig bark (from Australia), or linden bark (from Europe), or hickory bark (from the US), or any of a number of other possibilities. There are a number of trees that produce bark tough enough to make cordage from, and unfortunately, they are not confined to one climatic zone or one continent. There's a lab in Madison, Wisconsin that could easily identify the wood and perhaps the bark, and there are geology labs in many universities that could probably ID the rock to location. However, each of these tests is somewhat destructive and probably costly. Whether it is worth it in this case I can't tell, but it is technically possible to determine where the materials came from. Hope this helps, F

25th March 2007, 09:17 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I have to agree about found art, Tim--and thanks for the parsnip pic.

26th March 2007, 05:32 PM	#8
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I grew up in England playing with flint and occasionally trying to make something with it. The stone looks exactly like English flint. It could well be from somewhere else, but the color and shape seem very familiar to me. Josh

30th December 2009, 09:33 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Privet. Hmmmm. Interesting finding. I don't see a lowland tropical Ligustrum species on the list yet, so I'm not buying Torres Strait Islands. Without testing the bark binding (hey, why not disassemble it completely and test the rock head too? ) I think the best guess is that the handle came out of someone's hedge or weed patch. Great that you're doing this research, Tim. At least, now we know where to go when we have these types of questions next time. Best, F

31st December 2009, 02:08 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	What does the Australian Privet Hawk Moth grub eat?

31st December 2009, 03:53 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Ummmmmm, the privet hawk moth (Psilogramma menephron) caterpillars eat members of the families Bignoniaceae and Oleaceae, including "olive trees (Olea europaea, OLEACEAE), but is perhaps most often found in suburbia on privet (Ligustrum vulgare, OLEACEAE ), jasmine (Jasminum officinale, OLEACEAE ), and Australian native olive (Olea paniculata, OLEACEAE)" (ref). You were perhaps expecting that because it is found in the tropical Pacific, therefore privet is found there too? Best, F

1st January 2010, 02:51 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	F, are you stating that there are no Australasia Ligustrum, native Privets or related species? Dr Gasson did say "closest anatomical match". Perhaps you have access to better examples to match the results too? If so that would greatly help your most learned contributions so far to the thread.