In very rusty condition ...but is this a Khanda??

katana · 18th March 2007, 11:53 PM

Hi Jens,
thanks again for your input...

..the ricasso was a mystery to me as well, unless this was the way the sword was held when 'two handed'.....which does not seem logical ...having a totally unprotected hand would not seem sensible. I did consider the possibillity that this could have an 'execution' function....but soon dismissed it. The spine has a number of nicks in it (all very old...hidden behind the rust) which suggests this sword has been used defensively.

Hi Richard,
my main concern was to leave some of the sword's age by not removing all its 'history'. My compromise was to get one side of the blade in a condition that would show any pattern (wootz) clearly, onced etched. The other side is more pitted and 'displays' its 'antiquity' better.
The blade although slightly thinner than the average sword blade, is flexible but strong. The hilt is 'tight' (as in Tulwar) , or very tight ...bearing in mind the original padding would 'pack it out' a little. In the hand the sword is fast and very very slightly 'top' heavy .....but feel that is due to length.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your informative post, and you have given me more leads to research .....which I appreciate

Very pleased indeed, to have acquired a sword with , potentially, a very colourful past. A sword I will truly treasure

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2007, 02:38 AM

It should be noted as well that the 'pattisa' blades were noted as being quite flexible, and of course the widened tip added weight and force to the slashing cuts. It is interesting that the flexible blades used in such slashing cuts also gained favor in Arabia, in particular Oman, where the kattara blades are often seen almost undulating in swordplay. As I have mentioned, the pattisa form blade may well have diffused into Africa via Arab trade on the Malabar Coast and into Zanzibar, an Omani Sultanate, from there via trade into Kenya.

Amazing how weapons can diffuse across continents isn't it!!! But this is what our studies are about

All the best,
Jim

katana · 26th March 2007, 06:57 PM

Tried to etch with ferric chloride......but could not produce a pattern

After posting this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4306

I then used vinegar at room temperature to slow the etching process.....but still no pattern.....so its not wootz

But, previously 'clean, smooth, bright' areas of the blade developed tiny, dark 'pinhole' pitting which seem to be 'grouped' together in random lines. It suggests that the blade is composed of 'different' steels, but I cannot see evidence of pattern welding. The earlier corrosion seemed to show a 'pattern' (pictures earlier in thread, 2nd March)

Checking to find how the corrosion rates vary for iron and steel I find this web page which suggests that carbon steel corrodes quicker than iron.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:1...nk&cd=24&gl=uk

So the question is ....is the blade composed of areas of different steels or are there impurities which are easily corroded by acid.

The blade seems well made, strong, flexible and is easily sharpened (and retains the edge well)

katana · 26th March 2007, 07:44 PM

Some pictures which may help......I have edited these with a higher than normal 'contrast' to make them clearer.

RSWORD · 26th March 2007, 11:34 PM

In your 1st and 4th pictures is the cutting edge at the top of the picture? If you look closely at the pictures you have what looks like a "hamon". This is suggestive that this blade might be of tripartite construction, in other words, an inserted edge sandwiched between softer cheeks. The pattern that seems to show along the edge is a result of that construction and the edge being heat treated. You see this in some Indian swords, as well as, a number of other cultures.

katana · 27th March 2007, 02:05 AM

Hi Rsword,
unfortunately the spine is uppermost....the pictures are not too clear. The more highly polished area along the edge of the spine was caused by the fact that it was slightly 'raised' from the surface of the blade. A sort of very, very shallow fuller ran parallel with the spine, not deep enough to sand smooth independently but 'high' enough to 'catch' the abrasive paper causing more metal loss from the spine area, giving it a 'cleaner look'.

Regards David

katana · 30th March 2007, 07:26 PM

Just two final questions to wrap this thread up...

The pommel finial, the 'lotus bud' is slightly loose and rattles slightly. Would it be OK to solder it into position? Aradite??

Secondly, there appears to be loose material inside the 'disc pommel' which rattles. I assumed that it was loose rusted metal from inside the hilt that had flaked off. But placing a magnet on the hilt does not 'hold' these pieces still. So I do not think it is ferrous metal. So ....would this 'rattle' be an original feature and if so.......why???

Thankyou all for help with this thread

Regards David

26th March 2007, 07:44 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Some pictures which may help......I have edited these with a higher than normal 'contrast' to make them clearer. Attached Images

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18th March 2007, 11:53 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jens, thanks again for your input... ..the ricasso was a mystery to me as well, unless this was the way the sword was held when 'two handed'.....which does not seem logical ...having a totally unprotected hand would not seem sensible. I did consider the possibillity that this could have an 'execution' function....but soon dismissed it. The spine has a number of nicks in it (all very old...hidden behind the rust) which suggests this sword has been used defensively. Hi Richard, my main concern was to leave some of the sword's age by not removing all its 'history'. My compromise was to get one side of the blade in a condition that would show any pattern (wootz) clearly, onced etched. The other side is more pitted and 'displays' its 'antiquity' better. The blade although slightly thinner than the average sword blade, is flexible but strong. The hilt is 'tight' (as in Tulwar) , or very tight ...bearing in mind the original padding would 'pack it out' a little. In the hand the sword is fast and very very slightly 'top' heavy .....but feel that is due to length. Hi Jim, Thanks for your informative post, and you have given me more leads to research .....which I appreciate Very pleased indeed, to have acquired a sword with , potentially, a very colourful past. A sword I will truly treasure

19th March 2007, 02:38 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,788	It should be noted as well that the 'pattisa' blades were noted as being quite flexible, and of course the widened tip added weight and force to the slashing cuts. It is interesting that the flexible blades used in such slashing cuts also gained favor in Arabia, in particular Oman, where the kattara blades are often seen almost undulating in swordplay. As I have mentioned, the pattisa form blade may well have diffused into Africa via Arab trade on the Malabar Coast and into Zanzibar, an Omani Sultanate, from there via trade into Kenya. Amazing how weapons can diffuse across continents isn't it!!! But this is what our studies are about All the best, Jim

26th March 2007, 06:57 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Tried to etch with ferric chloride......but could not produce a pattern After posting this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4306 I then used vinegar at room temperature to slow the etching process.....but still no pattern.....so its not wootz But, previously 'clean, smooth, bright' areas of the blade developed tiny, dark 'pinhole' pitting which seem to be 'grouped' together in random lines. It suggests that the blade is composed of 'different' steels, but I cannot see evidence of pattern welding. The earlier corrosion seemed to show a 'pattern' (pictures earlier in thread, 2nd March) Checking to find how the corrosion rates vary for iron and steel I find this web page which suggests that carbon steel corrodes quicker than iron. http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:1...nk&cd=24&gl=uk So the question is ....is the blade composed of areas of different steels or are there impurities which are easily corroded by acid. The blade seems well made, strong, flexible and is easily sharpened (and retains the edge well)

26th March 2007, 11:34 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,096	In your 1st and 4th pictures is the cutting edge at the top of the picture? If you look closely at the pictures you have what looks like a "hamon". This is suggestive that this blade might be of tripartite construction, in other words, an inserted edge sandwiched between softer cheeks. The pattern that seems to show along the edge is a result of that construction and the edge being heat treated. You see this in some Indian swords, as well as, a number of other cultures.

27th March 2007, 02:05 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rsword, unfortunately the spine is uppermost....the pictures are not too clear. The more highly polished area along the edge of the spine was caused by the fact that it was slightly 'raised' from the surface of the blade. A sort of very, very shallow fuller ran parallel with the spine, not deep enough to sand smooth independently but 'high' enough to 'catch' the abrasive paper causing more metal loss from the spine area, giving it a 'cleaner look'. Regards David

30th March 2007, 07:26 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Just two final questions to wrap this thread up... The pommel finial, the 'lotus bud' is slightly loose and rattles slightly. Would it be OK to solder it into position? Aradite?? Secondly, there appears to be loose material inside the 'disc pommel' which rattles. I assumed that it was loose rusted metal from inside the hilt that had flaked off. But placing a magnet on the hilt does not 'hold' these pieces still. So I do not think it is ferrous metal. So ....would this 'rattle' be an original feature and if so.......why??? Thankyou all for help with this thread Regards David