Origins of Kilij

ariel · 16th March 2007, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Thanks Ariel for the great response. I am going to be away for the next week and will try to come up with as well a thought out rebuttal (if I can).

All the best
Jeff

I would love to see your rebuttal: the best way to learn.
Unfortunately, the material is so scarce that we ( myself first and foremost) invent more theories than solid answers...
I'd love to see an old sword engraved " Qalachuri. Made in 1123"

Fat chance. More likely it will be chemically etched "Made in India" all over the nickelplating...

Have a safe trip!

Kayahan · 28th May 2007, 05:26 PM

Dear Ariel,

The correct Turkish word is "Karaçori" and it was an export item during the Göktürk period (Z.V. Togan, 1946. Also, Manouchehr's book has a number of references to Persian manuscripts on the subject.) Having no survived copy of a sword that is at least 13 centuries old is not enough to call it the Unicorn of swords, I believe.

Dear Alina,

The same above source (Z.V. Togan) states that Mongols were not advanced blacksmiths; instead, they were buying "quality swords" from Göktürks first, and later from Uygurs. Therefore, Mongols cannot be the developer of the "Kılıç form" (by the way, "yalman" is not the correct word for the false edge, as literally "yalman" in Turkish means the cutting or penetrating part of a cutting or penetrating weapon. Hence, for example, lances also have "yalman"s). It might have come from the East, and Persia might have been on its route; but I believe that it is more logical to assume that (if not locally developed) it was developed by the Turkic people in Asian steppes, and came along with their migrations during the Mongol invasion period. With reference to your theory and the paintings; if they were buying swords from Turkic people, it is obvious that Mongols, too, were using swords of this form during the invasions.

ariel · 29th May 2007, 03:18 AM

Thanks for the opinion.
By "unicorn" I meant ( and still do) exactly what you describe: multiple mentions of it but no actual evidence.
here is a South Russian ( or North Caucasian, or Steppe, depending what you want to call the area ) sword: a typical "Kilij"
http://cgi.ebay.com/Medieval-Kyivan-...QQcmdZViewItem
There are quite a lot of similar examples in the museums.

Kayahan · 29th May 2007, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the link, it's really a nice find. However, for the 9th-10th century, it is not unusual at all; V.V. Arendt's work "Türkische Säbel aus den VIII. - IX. Jahrhunderten" (1935) focuses on this type, examines many survived examples in different museums, and concludes with a clear decision of Turkic origin.

And for the karaçori;

1. Having "multiple mentions of it but no actual evidence" doesn't always mean being mythical or fabled like "unicorn" and "Excalibur". However, if you think that the Royal Library of Alexandria is the unicorn of libraries, then I can understand that there is a conceptual difference between you and me.

2. We all may have a mistake when assuming that the karaçori is the name of a certain type of kılıç; instead, it may well be the generic name of Turkic swords in its time. Although literally means black, "kara" is an adjective which addresses to anything that is ordinary or common, or that belongs to common people. "Çori" is not used in the modern Turkish language, except it means knife in the slang of Istanbul streets..! Therefore, I always ask myself; can it have a generic meaning, just like what we mean when talking of a "European military sabre" today? (With reference to your earlier post; there is no sword engraved "European military sabre" on it, but we still classify them as such.) If this is the case, then the abovementioned work of Arendt has many examples of karaçori from the 8th century.

ariel · 29th May 2007, 01:09 PM

That is interesting! I never thought about phonetics. You may be absolutely right:" kalachoori" may not be a particular type of sword ( in the sense of shamshir, shashka, khanda etc), but a generic one, with an altered spelling on top to make our lives a bit more difficult

. If this is the case we might have indeed seen a lot of "Kalachoories" without recognizing them as such. It was mentioned casually in so many sources, always with an implication that it was somewhat curved and had a yelman, but never with any definition or actual example. That's why I called it a "unicorn". I think your explanation may be the best one I've ever heard about the nature of this sword.
The potential preservation of an ancient word in street slang is fascinating: low language may indeed preserve old words despite linguistic changes introduced over the centuries by the ruling class. As a quick example, one can refer to English: Saxons were defeated by the Normans. The former became peasants, whereas the latter became overlords. Saxons raised oxen, whereas Normans ate beef.
I am unfamiliar with the book you mentioned: is it too big for scanning and posting here? Or, any source of acquiring it? Must be very informative.
Thanks for your comments!!!

Kayahan · 30th May 2007, 10:17 AM

That work of Arendt was published in the "Archaeologica Hungarica", AN16, 1935. Scanning the article is not an option, but many of the university libraries should have a copy; I think you can easily find it in via ILL.

ariel · 10th September 2007, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odevan

Thanks for the link, it's really a nice find. However, for the 9th-10th century, it is not unusual at all; V.V. Arendt's work "Türkische Säbel aus den VIII. - IX. Jahrhunderten" (1935) focuses on this type, examines many survived examples in different museums, and concludes with a clear decision of Turkic origin.

And for the karaçori;

1. Having "multiple mentions of it but no actual evidence" doesn't always mean being mythical or fabled like "unicorn" and "Excalibur". However, if you think that the Royal Library of Alexandria is the unicorn of libraries, then I can understand that there is a conceptual difference between you and me.

2. We all may have a mistake when assuming that the karaçori is the name of a certain type of kılıç; instead, it may well be the generic name of Turkic swords in its time. Although literally means black, "kara" is an adjective which addresses to anything that is ordinary or common, or that belongs to common people. "Çori" is not used in the modern Turkish language, except it means knife in the slang of Istanbul streets..! Therefore, I always ask myself; can it have a generic meaning, just like what we mean when talking of a "European military sabre" today? (With reference to your earlier post; there is no sword engraved "European military sabre" on it, but we still classify them as such.) If this is the case, then the abovementioned work of Arendt has many examples of karaçori from the 8th century.

Here is another potential explanation: in the book " Weapons of the Islamic World" ( p.19), there ia a paragraph mentioning ...
" ... the treasure found inside the Kaaba which consisted of.... five swords imported from Kala, a small Bengali sea-port and sword manufacturing center in India"
That brings the mysterious Kalachoori back where it allegedly came from.
Is it possible that the word Cori ( sorry for the wrong C, couldn't find the correct font) comes from a proto-Turkic language?
The best that comes to my mind is the Afghani Choora.

Kayahan · 10th September 2007, 02:34 PM

I asked that to Dr. Oztopcu, who is a lecturer at UCLA as a respected authority on Turkic languages. He says he doesn't know any Turkic word similiar to "çori". Instead, he connects the term "Karaçori" to the other menitoned sword type in the same context, "Bilgatekini". Just like the "Tekin" of the latter, he suggest that it may come from "Çor", which is a high social rank amongst the middle-Asian Turkic tribes.

As you might have known, Bilge Tekin is a Gaznavid Emperor. The suffix "-i" gives a relation, so, the word "Bilgatekini" means "of Bilge Tekin". Dr. Oztopcu suggests the same explanation for the word "Karaçori"; "Kara Çor" may be the name (or nickname, just like "the Dark Knight") of a once-famous person, and the word "Karaçori" then means "of Kara Çor", that is, "Kara Çor style" for our subject-matter.

This is Dr. Oztopcu's approach. Unfortunately it just confuses me some more, because there is no mention of a person named "Kara Çor" in the known Turkic history. It seems like the whole area needs a lot deeper research.

ariel · 13th September 2007, 11:04 AM

Another possibility is an almost homophonic word " ghoracharra" ( sp.). They were irregular Afghani/Sikh/N.Indian cavalry.
According to Khorasani's book, Kalachurri ( or qalachurri) was also alternatively spelled " Garachurri"
Rings the bell?

28th May 2007, 05:26 PM	#2
Kayahan Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8	Dear Ariel, The correct Turkish word is "Karaçori" and it was an export item during the Göktürk period (Z.V. Togan, 1946. Also, Manouchehr's book has a number of references to Persian manuscripts on the subject.) Having no survived copy of a sword that is at least 13 centuries old is not enough to call it the Unicorn of swords, I believe. Dear Alina, The same above source (Z.V. Togan) states that Mongols were not advanced blacksmiths; instead, they were buying "quality swords" from Göktürks first, and later from Uygurs. Therefore, Mongols cannot be the developer of the "Kılıç form" (by the way, "yalman" is not the correct word for the false edge, as literally "yalman" in Turkish means the cutting or penetrating part of a cutting or penetrating weapon. Hence, for example, lances also have "yalman"s). It might have come from the East, and Persia might have been on its route; but I believe that it is more logical to assume that (if not locally developed) it was developed by the Turkic people in Asian steppes, and came along with their migrations during the Mongol invasion period. With reference to your theory and the paintings; if they were buying swords from Turkic people, it is obvious that Mongols, too, were using swords of this form during the invasions. Last edited by Odevan; 29th May 2007 at 08:11 AM.

29th May 2007, 01:09 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That is interesting! I never thought about phonetics. You may be absolutely right:" kalachoori" may not be a particular type of sword ( in the sense of shamshir, shashka, khanda etc), but a generic one, with an altered spelling on top to make our lives a bit more difficult . If this is the case we might have indeed seen a lot of "Kalachoories" without recognizing them as such. It was mentioned casually in so many sources, always with an implication that it was somewhat curved and had a yelman, but never with any definition or actual example. That's why I called it a "unicorn". I think your explanation may be the best one I've ever heard about the nature of this sword. The potential preservation of an ancient word in street slang is fascinating: low language may indeed preserve old words despite linguistic changes introduced over the centuries by the ruling class. As a quick example, one can refer to English: Saxons were defeated by the Normans. The former became peasants, whereas the latter became overlords. Saxons raised oxen, whereas Normans ate beef. I am unfamiliar with the book you mentioned: is it too big for scanning and posting here? Or, any source of acquiring it? Must be very informative. Thanks for your comments!!! Last edited by ariel; 29th May 2007 at 01:32 PM.

13th September 2007, 11:04 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Another possibility is an almost homophonic word " ghoracharra" ( sp.). They were irregular Afghani/Sikh/N.Indian cavalry. According to Khorasani's book, Kalachurri ( or qalachurri) was also alternatively spelled " Garachurri" Rings the bell? Last edited by ariel; 14th September 2007 at 10:31 AM.

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29th May 2007, 03:18 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the opinion. By "unicorn" I meant ( and still do) exactly what you describe: multiple mentions of it but no actual evidence. here is a South Russian ( or North Caucasian, or Steppe, depending what you want to call the area ) sword: a typical "Kilij" http://cgi.ebay.com/Medieval-Kyivan-...QQcmdZViewItem There are quite a lot of similar examples in the museums.

29th May 2007, 09:34 AM	#4
Kayahan Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8	Thanks for the link, it's really a nice find. However, for the 9th-10th century, it is not unusual at all; V.V. Arendt's work "Türkische Säbel aus den VIII. - IX. Jahrhunderten" (1935) focuses on this type, examines many survived examples in different museums, and concludes with a clear decision of Turkic origin. And for the karaçori; 1. Having "multiple mentions of it but no actual evidence" doesn't always mean being mythical or fabled like "unicorn" and "Excalibur". However, if you think that the Royal Library of Alexandria is the unicorn of libraries, then I can understand that there is a conceptual difference between you and me. 2. We all may have a mistake when assuming that the karaçori is the name of a certain type of kılıç; instead, it may well be the generic name of Turkic swords in its time. Although literally means black, "kara" is an adjective which addresses to anything that is ordinary or common, or that belongs to common people. "Çori" is not used in the modern Turkish language, except it means knife in the slang of Istanbul streets..! Therefore, I always ask myself; can it have a generic meaning, just like what we mean when talking of a "European military sabre" today? (With reference to your earlier post; there is no sword engraved "European military sabre" on it, but we still classify them as such.) If this is the case, then the abovementioned work of Arendt has many examples of karaçori from the 8th century.

30th May 2007, 10:17 AM	#6
Kayahan Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8	That work of Arendt was published in the "Archaeologica Hungarica", AN16, 1935. Scanning the article is not an option, but many of the university libraries should have a copy; I think you can easily find it in via ILL.

10th September 2007, 02:34 PM	#8
Kayahan Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8	I asked that to Dr. Oztopcu, who is a lecturer at UCLA as a respected authority on Turkic languages. He says he doesn't know any Turkic word similiar to "çori". Instead, he connects the term "Karaçori" to the other menitoned sword type in the same context, "Bilgatekini". Just like the "Tekin" of the latter, he suggest that it may come from "Çor", which is a high social rank amongst the middle-Asian Turkic tribes. As you might have known, Bilge Tekin is a Gaznavid Emperor. The suffix "-i" gives a relation, so, the word "Bilgatekini" means "of Bilge Tekin". Dr. Oztopcu suggests the same explanation for the word "Karaçori"; "Kara Çor" may be the name (or nickname, just like "the Dark Knight") of a once-famous person, and the word "Karaçori" then means "of Kara Çor", that is, "Kara Çor style" for our subject-matter. This is Dr. Oztopcu's approach. Unfortunately it just confuses me some more, because there is no mention of a person named "Kara Çor" in the known Turkic history. It seems like the whole area needs a lot deeper research.