Good news /bad news Tulwar.

Pukka Bundook · 7th March 2007, 09:42 PM

Brian,
Thanks for the picture!
Yes, to me it looks a bit of a challenge!..........but there goes that word again,...Challenge!
Challenges have to be met,...Don'cha know?

The scabbard I have has a ring on the middle fitting, so suppose it would also have one on the upper?

Jens,
I believe Tim is referring to the cost of making the upper fitting for the scabbard.

Re. how much metal removed, don't know. More sweat than metal i think!

Tim,
I see what you mean, but in my book I equate difficult and expensive together!.......as in, if it's easy to make, any daft --- can make one, so it should be cheap! Whereas if it's a bit harder to make, then Hmmm,.......it's gonn'a cost you!

Sorry for answering Jen's question to you Tim, Your post came up while I was answering mine!

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2007, 03:43 AM

I have just caught up on this very interesting thread, and Richard, I can only say you have done an unbelievably remarkable job at saving this well worn and terribly maimed warrior. How lucky this sword was that you were the one who took it in!!

In looking at the later entries where you have included the scabbard, which you indicate is apparantly original to the sword, I wanted to include some important information. This scabbard form, with the long fluted chape piece in iron, as well as pierced iron mounts, is of the form associated with Afghan swords. I have seen examples of Afghan shashka with scabbards of this form and it seems that paluoars often have these type scabbards as well.

It is known of course that weapons such as the tulwar of course diffused from the Northwest Frontier into Afghan regions, and this may be one which followed that course. Many of the weapons in Afghan regions, just as in the Mughal sphere, reflected profound Persian influence. It is interesting to note that the tulwar hilt on this example has unusual flueret style quillon terminals that correspond somewhat to the hilt form shown in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour" p.115) and which the author has curiously labeled the 'purbi' or 'purbiya' hilt (=Eastern, as he claims these derive from Eastern India).
These sharply stylized fleuret type terminals seem distinctly Mughal as they are seen as well on some Mysori hilts, and it would be extremely difficult to assign them to a specific region, or to designate the hilt form with a term such as applied in Pant. It does seem key that the tulwar itself seems to carry Mughal associated form and appears to have been scabbarded by most probably armourers in Afghan regions.

A classic example of a well worthy weapon with some apparantly fascinating history that was all but destined for the scrap heap due to the thoughtless vandalization of some misguided 'person' .....and wonderfully saved by the perseverence of an empassioned collector!! Well done Richard!!!!

Some very good points brought up by Jens as well on these extremely worked on blades, often reprofiled and excessively sharpened, and in this case where a good portion of the blade at the tip appears to be missing....that this may indeed affect the POB of the blade. Regardless of that, the appearance of the blade as it stands now is excellent!

All very best regards,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 8th March 2007, 06:13 AM

Jim,
Thank you for the lengthy and detailed reply, and for all the information re. this sword and scabbard!
Thank you again!!

So it appears this sword has a Moghul style hilt, and was scabbarded in the Afghan region?, How fascinating!
I suppose it could have gone through a scabbard or two in its working life, each one possibly distinct according to where circumstance placed it at the time.
Re. the blade tip, It could have lost about an inch, but not much more, unless the present scabbard was made after it had lost the tip.

Interesting thing about the scabbard, it appears to have been made for a left-handed person, as the middle fitting had the longer decorative side on the 'wrong' side. The wood also shows that this is the way it has always been, as it has a pale area where the decoration sat.
Also, the material covering the scabbard is overlapped and glued down what would normally be the 'out' side.

Would it be possible to hazard a guess as to the age of this sword?

Would be most indebted if you could!!

Thanks again for all your help,
Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th March 2007, 03:51 PM

Richard,

You are very observant to notice that the owner seems to have been left handed, very good observation, as I am sure several missed it – like I did. The flower on the square looks very nice.

Jim's comments on the scabbard mounts are good, and give an indication of, from where the sword origins. I once had an Afghan pulouar and the scabbard mounts were like the ones on you scabbard, but they were not pierced.

Jens

Gt Obach · 9th March 2007, 12:11 AM

i think the steel removed from this blade was minimal... it was in good shape before sanding.. ... now a blade with deep pitts needing a total regrind..... may loose much more metal and may shift the balance point... ..

as for the importance of the balance point..... i'm not a swordsman... so take this with a grain of salt... i find a blade with a balance point closer to the hand is quicker and more gives good control.... this is why a decent fighting knife will have a nice distal taper.. it'll have a quick tip

G

Pukka Bundook · 9th March 2007, 02:57 PM

Jens,
I'll keep you up to date when I get to making the wood scabbard and top fitting, but it may take me a while to get at it!.....lots on my plate already.

Greg,
I agree that lightening the blade a bit moves POB back a bit and makes it faster, Only down-side could be it might not cut as strong. (less weight behind the stroke)........But then again, if it can be swung faster, this maybe compensates?

Jens Nordlunde · 11th March 2007, 04:54 PM

I just had a look in Damascening on Steel and Iron, as Practised in India, London 1892, by T. H. Hendley. In the book he shows a flower on top of the disc, looking very much like the one on your tulwar. He writes that the hilt is from Punjab, NW India at the time, and the scabbard mounts are NW Indian/Afghan – so it all seems to fit together.

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7th March 2007, 09:42 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Brian, Thanks for the picture! Yes, to me it looks a bit of a challenge!..........but there goes that word again,...Challenge! Challenges have to be met,...Don'cha know? The scabbard I have has a ring on the middle fitting, so suppose it would also have one on the upper? Jens, I believe Tim is referring to the cost of making the upper fitting for the scabbard. Re. how much metal removed, don't know. More sweat than metal i think! Tim, I see what you mean, but in my book I equate difficult and expensive together!.......as in, if it's easy to make, any daft --- can make one, so it should be cheap! Whereas if it's a bit harder to make, then Hmmm,.......it's gonn'a cost you! Sorry for answering Jen's question to you Tim, Your post came up while I was answering mine!

8th March 2007, 03:43 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I have just caught up on this very interesting thread, and Richard, I can only say you have done an unbelievably remarkable job at saving this well worn and terribly maimed warrior. How lucky this sword was that you were the one who took it in!! In looking at the later entries where you have included the scabbard, which you indicate is apparantly original to the sword, I wanted to include some important information. This scabbard form, with the long fluted chape piece in iron, as well as pierced iron mounts, is of the form associated with Afghan swords. I have seen examples of Afghan shashka with scabbards of this form and it seems that paluoars often have these type scabbards as well. It is known of course that weapons such as the tulwar of course diffused from the Northwest Frontier into Afghan regions, and this may be one which followed that course. Many of the weapons in Afghan regions, just as in the Mughal sphere, reflected profound Persian influence. It is interesting to note that the tulwar hilt on this example has unusual flueret style quillon terminals that correspond somewhat to the hilt form shown in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour" p.115) and which the author has curiously labeled the 'purbi' or 'purbiya' hilt (=Eastern, as he claims these derive from Eastern India). These sharply stylized fleuret type terminals seem distinctly Mughal as they are seen as well on some Mysori hilts, and it would be extremely difficult to assign them to a specific region, or to designate the hilt form with a term such as applied in Pant. It does seem key that the tulwar itself seems to carry Mughal associated form and appears to have been scabbarded by most probably armourers in Afghan regions. A classic example of a well worthy weapon with some apparantly fascinating history that was all but destined for the scrap heap due to the thoughtless vandalization of some misguided 'person' .....and wonderfully saved by the perseverence of an empassioned collector!! Well done Richard!!!! Some very good points brought up by Jens as well on these extremely worked on blades, often reprofiled and excessively sharpened, and in this case where a good portion of the blade at the tip appears to be missing....that this may indeed affect the POB of the blade. Regardless of that, the appearance of the blade as it stands now is excellent! All very best regards, Jim

8th March 2007, 06:13 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, Thank you for the lengthy and detailed reply, and for all the information re. this sword and scabbard! Thank you again!! So it appears this sword has a Moghul style hilt, and was scabbarded in the Afghan region?, How fascinating! I suppose it could have gone through a scabbard or two in its working life, each one possibly distinct according to where circumstance placed it at the time. Re. the blade tip, It could have lost about an inch, but not much more, unless the present scabbard was made after it had lost the tip. Interesting thing about the scabbard, it appears to have been made for a left-handed person, as the middle fitting had the longer decorative side on the 'wrong' side. The wood also shows that this is the way it has always been, as it has a pale area where the decoration sat. Also, the material covering the scabbard is overlapped and glued down what would normally be the 'out' side. Would it be possible to hazard a guess as to the age of this sword? Would be most indebted if you could!! Thanks again for all your help, Richard.

8th March 2007, 03:51 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Richard, You are very observant to notice that the owner seems to have been left handed, very good observation, as I am sure several missed it – like I did. The flower on the square looks very nice. Jim's comments on the scabbard mounts are good, and give an indication of, from where the sword origins. I once had an Afghan pulouar and the scabbard mounts were like the ones on you scabbard, but they were not pierced. Jens

9th March 2007, 12:11 AM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	i think the steel removed from this blade was minimal... it was in good shape before sanding.. ... now a blade with deep pitts needing a total regrind..... may loose much more metal and may shift the balance point... .. as for the importance of the balance point..... i'm not a swordsman... so take this with a grain of salt... i find a blade with a balance point closer to the hand is quicker and more gives good control.... this is why a decent fighting knife will have a nice distal taper.. it'll have a quick tip G

9th March 2007, 02:57 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, I'll keep you up to date when I get to making the wood scabbard and top fitting, but it may take me a while to get at it!.....lots on my plate already. Greg, I agree that lightening the blade a bit moves POB back a bit and makes it faster, Only down-side could be it might not cut as strong. (less weight behind the stroke)........But then again, if it can be swung faster, this maybe compensates?

11th March 2007, 04:54 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I just had a look in Damascening on Steel and Iron, as Practised in India, London 1892, by T. H. Hendley. In the book he shows a flower on top of the disc, looking very much like the one on your tulwar. He writes that the hilt is from Punjab, NW India at the time, and the scabbard mounts are NW Indian/Afghan – so it all seems to fit together.