An Ottoman Shamshir for Comment

Philip · 22nd February 2005, 06:42 AM

The blade form, with its raised "yelman" or back-edge, would indicate a kilij, not a shamshir. Blades with yelmans and radiused tip contours are associated with the Ottoman Empire. Although on rather rare occasions one sees a Persian saber whose blade has a back-edge, such examples still exhibit the markedly tapering profile and acute point that are characteristic of a shamshir.

On the specimen illustrated in this post, the style of the hilt is typically Ottoman. Based upon this characteristic, and the shape of the blade, there does not seem to be any connection with Qajar saber types, either original or revival.

The blade on this piece is decorated with etched calligraphic motifs. There are two die-struck "eyelash" marks, and X stamps in the fullers, which are common on European blades made for the Eastern market. One can also see that a long central section of the spine is "sunken", i.e. at a level below that of the forte and the yelman. This latter characteristic is seen on a number of Eastern European sabers. A remarkably similar blade, minus the markings, is seen on a Polish "karabela" saber (Historisches Museum der Stadt Wien, inv. no. 126244) published in W. Zablocki, CIECIA PRAWDZIWA SZABLA (Warsaw: Wydanictwo Sport i Turystika, 1988), pp 208-9. A closely-related specimen is on pp 206-7 (same collection, inv. no. 127454). That one is interesting for a dorsal fuller on the sunken central section, which parallels a Chinese example (Metropolitan Museum of Art, acc. no. 36.25.1473a,b); I discussed this and their Polish counterparts in my article "Some Notable Sabers of the Qing Dynasty at the Met. Mus. of Art", MET. MUS. JOURNAL, Vol 36/2001.

The position of the "eyelash" markings on the blade posted by Charles is rather close to the edge, which suggests that the edge may have been considerably ground down during its working life.

Over the years I have seen a fair number of European saber blades, mostly of the broad, multifullered hussar type, mounted in Ottoman hilts. It is possible that these were hilted up for issue to units in the Balkans, considering the proximity of that region to those parts of Europe in which those blades were so widely used.

Yannis · 22nd February 2005, 08:38 AM

Very accurate remarks Philip! I liked specially this about the proximity of the “eyelash” to the edge. The etched Damascus (or calligraphy) is also in strange place by the edge. Any work for sharpening this blade would destroy it. So I agree that it could be wider when it was made. Or this blade was made from the beginning for dress, not for fighting.

Blade and guard are very clean for the age. Very interesting hilt, with big bubble. It looks like rhino!

Charles, is it possible a close photo of hilt and another one under the guard, where hilt connects to blade? Is there any scabbard?

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2005, 09:01 AM

This is an interesting sword, and Philip’s comments and references very good. I do however have one ‘but’, if the blade has been sharpened down to the width it has to day, would it not have been broader close to the hilt – the first 2-3 cm?
If this is so, and the fact that it cant take more sharpening, it looks like a dress sword to me.

tom hyle · 22nd February 2005, 09:42 AM

To call it a dress sword doesn't neccessarily mean it lacks any of the capabilities of a simpler piece (there is, as I've said before, no readable or consistant inclination either way on this issue of falsely equating fance with either quality or its lack). Is the blade sharp? I think it's original width, and I don't think that placing either the struck or etched marks where resharpenings would potentially eface them is all that unusual. In addition to the no untoward uneveness in the edge issue, the general lack of wear, and the handle matching the blade width, there is the front groove at the forte, whose placement seems original.

Conogre · 22nd February 2005, 11:25 PM

I'm struck by the red necklace-type bead in the center of the hilt, which seems very uncharacteristic for a sword of this type, more inclined to be found in a Moroccan or N African sword than in an Ottoman sword.
Mike

Yannis · 23rd February 2005, 07:07 AM

Conogre
Sharp eye! I watched it as close as I could. My idea is that the “eye” is a replacement. I think it used to be another ornament there. Possibly a small silver plaque of a “tear” design. The color around this small hole is little different than the rest of the hilt. Also I am more pro of a rhino horn hilt.

Philip · 23rd February 2005, 07:08 AM

Based upon the position of the eyelash markings at present, and comparison of its general proportions (including fuller width and spacing vis-a-vis the spine and edge) to other blades of its ilk which I have personally examined and/or seen in photos over many years, I still believe that the blade of this one has been ground down, most likely PRIOR to being mounted in its present hilt.

It is very likely that the narrowing of the blade (skilfully executed, to harmonize with the spine) was done at the same time the calligraphy was etched into the surface.

Kilij and shamshir blades have relatively diminutive tangs (generally no more than 3 1/2 in. long and about 2/3 the width of the blade) which are rivetted to an iron plate which has the contours of the hilt itself. A peripheral band or strap is brazed or soldered around the plate, and the gripscales rest upon the band, being held in place by rivets running through matching holes in the iron plate. The plate is invariably wider than the blade tang, and thus a tang can be attached a bit "off center", or even filed down on one side, to compensate for the loss of some width at the edge and thus end up being centered on the finished hilt.

There are also cases which I have seen in which the tang itself has been replaced; the old one (originally forged as an extension of the blade billet) replaced with a separate unit, whose forward end is cleft to accept the blade and perhaps just a nub of the original tang, to provide enough contact surface for a good forge-weld. In this way, the new tang can be made to be centered on whatever width the altered blade may happen to be.

The small short groove in the area corresponding to the ricasso may well have been cut after the blade was narrowed. On blades which I have studied which have this feature and all/most of their original width, this groove tends to be somewhat wider and deeper.

tom hyle · 24th February 2005, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

ground down, most likely PRIOR to being mounted in its present hilt.

It is very likely that the narrowing of the blade (skilfully executed, to harmonize with the spine) was done at the same time the calligraphy was etched into the surface.

Possible, but almost certainly that would mean the small groove at the forte was also made at such time. That is possible, but is it likely? and it seems to match the small rear groove well?

Kilij and shamshir blades have relatively diminutive tangs (generally no more than 3 1/2 in. long and about 2/3 the width of the blade) which are rivetted to an iron plate which has the contours of the hilt itself. A peripheral band or strap is brazed or soldered around the plate, and the gripscales rest upon the band, being held in place by rivets running through matching holes in the iron plate. The plate is invariably wider than the blade tang, and thus a tang can be attached a bit "off center", or even filed down on one side, to compensate for the loss of some width at the edge and thus end up being centered on the finished hilt.

Thanks for the description. I don't see inside a lot of these, or even yatagans, but I've seen them have more after the nature of a half length (full width) tang rivetted to an extension (plate) for length.

There are also cases which I have seen in which the tang itself has been replaced; the old one (originally forged as an extension of the blade billet) replaced with a separate unit, whose forward end is cleft to accept the blade and perhaps just a nub of the original tang, to provide enough contact surface for a good forge-weld. In this way, the new tang can be made to be centered on whatever width the altered blade may happen to .....w

I believe you are misinterpretting what you have seen; the pinched and scarfed blade bases are more likely part of the original construction.

Battara · 3rd April 2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

I'm struck by the red necklace-type bead in the center of the hilt, which seems very uncharacteristic for a sword of this type, more inclined to be found in a Moroccan or N African sword than in an Ottoman sword.
Mike

Although a little unusual, it looks like this bead is made of cornelian (better closeups can show more) and this semi-precious stone is not unheard of in Ottoman jewelry or other pieces (archer's rings for example made of cornelian). I'm with Phillip with Ottoman origins.

Aqtai · 5th April 2007, 04:48 PM

Its a beautiful weapon. the combination of slender blade and yelman does remind me of Mamluk sabres, however the Mamluk sabres I've seen also tend to be much less curved, i.e. straighter.

22nd February 2005, 08:38 AM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Nice kilij! Very accurate remarks Philip! I liked specially this about the proximity of the “eyelash” to the edge. The etched Damascus (or calligraphy) is also in strange place by the edge. Any work for sharpening this blade would destroy it. So I agree that it could be wider when it was made. Or this blade was made from the beginning for dress, not for fighting. Blade and guard are very clean for the age. Very interesting hilt, with big bubble. It looks like rhino! Charles, is it possible a close photo of hilt and another one under the guard, where hilt connects to blade? Is there any scabbard?

23rd February 2005, 07:08 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	alteration to edge Based upon the position of the eyelash markings at present, and comparison of its general proportions (including fuller width and spacing vis-a-vis the spine and edge) to other blades of its ilk which I have personally examined and/or seen in photos over many years, I still believe that the blade of this one has been ground down, most likely PRIOR to being mounted in its present hilt. It is very likely that the narrowing of the blade (skilfully executed, to harmonize with the spine) was done at the same time the calligraphy was etched into the surface. Kilij and shamshir blades have relatively diminutive tangs (generally no more than 3 1/2 in. long and about 2/3 the width of the blade) which are rivetted to an iron plate which has the contours of the hilt itself. A peripheral band or strap is brazed or soldered around the plate, and the gripscales rest upon the band, being held in place by rivets running through matching holes in the iron plate. The plate is invariably wider than the blade tang, and thus a tang can be attached a bit "off center", or even filed down on one side, to compensate for the loss of some width at the edge and thus end up being centered on the finished hilt. There are also cases which I have seen in which the tang itself has been replaced; the old one (originally forged as an extension of the blade billet) replaced with a separate unit, whose forward end is cleft to accept the blade and perhaps just a nub of the original tang, to provide enough contact surface for a good forge-weld. In this way, the new tang can be made to be centered on whatever width the altered blade may happen to be. The small short groove in the area corresponding to the ricasso may well have been cut after the blade was narrowed. On blades which I have studied which have this feature and all/most of their original width, this groove tends to be somewhat wider and deeper.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

22nd February 2005, 06:42 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The blade form, with its raised "yelman" or back-edge, would indicate a kilij, not a shamshir. Blades with yelmans and radiused tip contours are associated with the Ottoman Empire. Although on rather rare occasions one sees a Persian saber whose blade has a back-edge, such examples still exhibit the markedly tapering profile and acute point that are characteristic of a shamshir. On the specimen illustrated in this post, the style of the hilt is typically Ottoman. Based upon this characteristic, and the shape of the blade, there does not seem to be any connection with Qajar saber types, either original or revival. The blade on this piece is decorated with etched calligraphic motifs. There are two die-struck "eyelash" marks, and X stamps in the fullers, which are common on European blades made for the Eastern market. One can also see that a long central section of the spine is "sunken", i.e. at a level below that of the forte and the yelman. This latter characteristic is seen on a number of Eastern European sabers. A remarkably similar blade, minus the markings, is seen on a Polish "karabela" saber (Historisches Museum der Stadt Wien, inv. no. 126244) published in W. Zablocki, CIECIA PRAWDZIWA SZABLA (Warsaw: Wydanictwo Sport i Turystika, 1988), pp 208-9. A closely-related specimen is on pp 206-7 (same collection, inv. no. 127454). That one is interesting for a dorsal fuller on the sunken central section, which parallels a Chinese example (Metropolitan Museum of Art, acc. no. 36.25.1473a,b); I discussed this and their Polish counterparts in my article "Some Notable Sabers of the Qing Dynasty at the Met. Mus. of Art", MET. MUS. JOURNAL, Vol 36/2001. The position of the "eyelash" markings on the blade posted by Charles is rather close to the edge, which suggests that the edge may have been considerably ground down during its working life. Over the years I have seen a fair number of European saber blades, mostly of the broad, multifullered hussar type, mounted in Ottoman hilts. It is possible that these were hilted up for issue to units in the Balkans, considering the proximity of that region to those parts of Europe in which those blades were so widely used.

22nd February 2005, 09:01 AM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	This is an interesting sword, and Philip’s comments and references very good. I do however have one ‘but’, if the blade has been sharpened down to the width it has to day, would it not have been broader close to the hilt – the first 2-3 cm? If this is so, and the fact that it cant take more sharpening, it looks like a dress sword to me.

22nd February 2005, 09:42 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	To call it a dress sword doesn't neccessarily mean it lacks any of the capabilities of a simpler piece (there is, as I've said before, no readable or consistant inclination either way on this issue of falsely equating fance with either quality or its lack). Is the blade sharp? I think it's original width, and I don't think that placing either the struck or etched marks where resharpenings would potentially eface them is all that unusual. In addition to the no untoward uneveness in the edge issue, the general lack of wear, and the handle matching the blade width, there is the front groove at the forte, whose placement seems original.

22nd February 2005, 11:25 PM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I'm struck by the red necklace-type bead in the center of the hilt, which seems very uncharacteristic for a sword of this type, more inclined to be found in a Moroccan or N African sword than in an Ottoman sword. Mike

23rd February 2005, 07:07 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Conogre Sharp eye! I watched it as close as I could. My idea is that the “eye” is a replacement. I think it used to be another ornament there. Possibly a small silver plaque of a “tear” design. The color around this small hole is little different than the rest of the hilt. Also I am more pro of a rhino horn hilt.

5th April 2007, 04:48 PM	#10
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Its a beautiful weapon. the combination of slender blade and yelman does remind me of Mamluk sabres, however the Mamluk sabres I've seen also tend to be much less curved, i.e. straighter.