A Berber saber?

[spiral]

I Just noticed in another current sword ID thread,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4117

another fine example of the classic chequer booard pattern used in North Africa. {In this case amongst the leatherwork, on the lower wide piece.}




Spiral

[TVV]

A similar sword just ended on eBay. Note the leather sheath:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...5620&rd=1&rd=1

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by TVV

A similar sword just ended on eBay. Note the leather sheath:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...5620&rd=1&rd=1

Yeah, I tried for the second one (it was sold by the same dealer as the first one; I asked, but they had no idea of the provenance on the swords.

What with the consensus leaning away from the Middle East and towards SE Asia, I couldn't bring myself to bid as heavily this time and someone else bought it. Hopefully someone who frequents this borad so we can see better pics.

[Tim Simmons]

Great stuff!! North African. The scabbard really states it without any question. Well done. I want one.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Great stuff!! North African. The scabbard really states it without any question. Well done. I want one.

So, I let the one with the definitive evidence slip thru my fingers? @#$%$##@$%^@!

Just for my edification, what was it about the scabbard that convinced you as to its provenance? I didn't see anything that couldn't just as easily have been made in the Phillipines, or Mexico for that matter.

[Jim McDougall]

OK, Rick! "Land of a Thousand Dances"!! boogalooo!!!

Anyway, I'm way confused here. How is a loosely compared scabbard the key identifying factor in observing a weapon? While it is true that leather scabbards are key in North African weapons, we beg to ask what an Indonesian style hilt is doing in North Africa. Certainly we have always recognized the vast scope of trade and the diffusion of weapons via those routes, however within certain cultural spheres the locally preferred hilt forms prevail, and would not likely develop multipally.

I know that I was drawn initially to North Africa as well, but I had not yet considered Indonesia as the weapons in that sphere were basically outside my field of study.

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done

All the best,
Jim

P.S. I wish these could turn out to be Berber! That would vindicate my original suggestion and prove this old radar of mine was still in working order, and I too would be dancin'!!

[Tim Simmons]

My praise might reflect that I had only been awake say 30mins. That is right that the scabbard does look as is it could well be from the PI or Mexico/South America. Perhaps it is not North African. I only know that many blades of several forms from North Africa come with this sort of scabbard with that flap bit. It is possible that the scabbard has been put with the sword it does look rather like a machete scabbard. Am I allowed to change my mind back to my original thoughts. An Iberian influence would not be out of place in Timor and there abouts .

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done

Good point Jim, Id missed that, perhaps in that case, we should look at the Dogon for a possible North African insperation to such cheqerboard designs though? whether by diffusian to surronding tribes or not?



To quote from.. http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/toc/people/Dogon.html


"The Dogon are best known for their extensive carving of masks and wooden figurative art. The primary colors used by the Dogon are usually red, black, and white, and popular patterns include spirals and checkerboard motifs, both of which can be traced to their origin stories."

I assume these handles were intialy dyed red & black? that how it appears, to my eye?

The origin of this pattern in the region is reputadly from one of the 4 anscersters of the tribe.{The Nomo.}...

"Often depicted is the blacksmith Nommo, usually with a horse. He was the first to descend to earth in an ark or by means of a rainbow, bearing seeds and he laid out the first fields for agriculture. The chequer board patterns are associated with him and those fields"

from.

http://artworld.uea.ac.uk/teaching_m...n/welcome.html

So that combined with The grip shape could be an evolution or hybrid of North African grips, Nimcha, Berber Saber, Bou Saadi. Would perhaps mean North Africa shouldnt be ruled out?

It certanly visualy would sit comfterably in a North African weapons collection.

Spiral

[Rick]

Now I shall perform the dance of vindication .....
Thank you ....