Museum Nusantara

[rasdan]

Opps sorry rick. I edited the comment earlier and i didnt realise i didnt delete the word "and". Probably makes my comments sounds razzing. Sorry.. Deleted already.

[Rick]

Thanks Rasdan .

Best,
Rick

[rasdan]

You're welcome Rick..

[Dajak]

Hi David you might be better reading some books about the subject
there is more than only Islam or Christian things hard to understand if you never get in to it that why I don t write a lot about what happend to me and others.

If you use magic for good things it is white magic if you use it for bad things black magic.

Even in the Islam there is something like the devil


Ben

[rasdan]

Hi David,

Not all, but almost all will try divert your your faith and relationship with God away. For example, muslims normally reads a few passages or sentances from the Quran for the sake of God. Now, after the person had made aggreement with the entities, they will ask the owner to recite a few sentances; for instance when the owner is in trouble. This is actually will make your heart split into 2. One is to recite for god and the other is to recite for them. They want to share God's place in your heart. To a muslim this is a serious offence. On the other hand, they will also ask for ridiculous stuff when you ask for extra service/power. They will even ask for your wife. A long lost friend of mine had given his. Of course not all will ask for Quran recitation some will ask for mantras etc. Depending on your and their religion.

There are also normal entities that didnt cause trouble. But these are weak and almost of no use. They'll run away the moment they see the other guy you are fighting had a stronger one.

The nice/white ones David are rare and are normally use for charms and business purposes. But still, this type will also try to divert your faith. You must study the impact of their demands very very skillfully. They are really cunning.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David you might be better reading some books about the subject
there is more than only Islam or Christian things hard to understand if you never get in to it that why I don t write a lot about what happend to me and others.
If you use magic for good things it is white magic if you use it for bad things black magic.
Even in the Islam there is something like the devil
Ben

hmmm, interesting assumption Ben, that i haven't read any books on the subject...are there any English language books you might recommend?
I am well aware that there is more than only Islamic or Christian (or even Hindu) things and would be quite capable of understanding what may have happened to you or others if you were to share that information. The personal experience of you and others on this forum is something i am not likely to find in any books which is partly why i am raising these questions, to hear and try to understand what people here think.
I also tend to see the differences between white and black magick as a bit more complicated than you describe.
So Rasdan, if i understand you correctly you don't believe that the traditions of the keris are in keeping with service to God? Where do you believe the entities within "living" keris come from? Who do they "work" for?

[Dajak]

Hi David white magic is something like you use the power off the keris to make a sick person better , black magic you wanna make your enemy sick ( I now a person that is already death seeing doing this with an neighbour that did make some troubele with him he told and showed me how he did it with his favorit keris after he passed away his wife wanted me to geve the keris but I refused ) .

The best thing is the same advice Rasdan have don t try to get involved with those things not every one can handel these things
It don t have to be a keris it can be an mask an wayang puppet an spear
everything they can put an sole (don t now if this is the right translation off the worth) in it .

I don t now if there are english books about the subject Dutch a lot
there are even Dutch movie s about things that happend the call the silent power (Dutch name de stille kracht maybe also availble with enghlish language ) or an movie called the keris Pusaka based on true stories

An nice book called goena goena written by Helene Weski maybe availble in English

I have an pua from Borneo they used that when the Iban came back with heads to put them in there was an person at my house who is sensitive for things like that he get chicken skin and was shaking everytime he walk on the stairs where the pua was hanging

Ben

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by David

So Rasdan, if i understand you correctly you don't believe that the traditions of the keris are in keeping with service to God? Where do you believe the entities within "living" keris come from? Who do they "work" for?

What i said is the pre-islamic beliefs and practice. When Islam came, these beliefs was changed and empus starts inserting prayers into the blade. For instance, the pendawa lima is purely mythical characters before islam, when islam came, this 5 characters are said to represent the 5 pillars of Islam. The walis didnt want to take everything away from the Javanese people. They change the concept so that it suits Islamic needs. I assume this is also the case with keris. I think this is the turning point of the belalai gajah (perhaps representing Ganesha) starts to be called kembang kacang. And this is perhaps where the concept of a keris not being a weapon and the idea of Islamic phylosophy on keris parts started. I think belalai gajah is representing Ganesha since Buddha keris didnt have one. (Just my opinion with my limited knowledge)

However not all empu inserted just prayers. A lot (not nescessarily empus) still practice pre-islamic rituals until today. If you had a newly made keris, u can also put these entities in it. Thats why collectors who bought keris relying on vibrations can sometimes got cheated. They will age the keris to a certain tangguh and put entities that will transmit vibrations the new owner that they are from that tangguh. So, no way to run for collectors. Ultimately its our inteligence that beats everything. Afterall thats what differentiates us from these entities and animals.

Some remarks about the invading Dutch. I think the objective of negative entities are to make fellow countrymen killed each other or just cause fights and havoc. They are not interested helping you fighting a real war. Take puputan for an example. By the way, the Dutch had local allies that will reveal the tricks how to beat the entities.

I had talked too much about this and had received a warning. I'm sorry guys. i cant explain more than this.

[David]

Originally Posted by rasdan

What i said is the pre-islamic beliefs and practice. When Islam came, these beliefs was changed and empus starts inserting prayers into the blade.

I had talked too much about this and had received a warning. I'm sorry guys. i cant explain more than this.

Rasdan, your comments so far have been helpful, but i am not trying to keep you personally (or anyone for that matter) in this discussion. If you feel you can't talk about these things, if you are feeling threadened, what ever, please feel free to drop out of the discussion. This will not, however, stop my own inquiry. Knowledge is power. Fear is failure.
I was not aware that you were only speaking of pre-Islamic beliefs and practices when discussing powerful keris. I have assumed that there are also many empu made keris or other pusaka that have been made in the Islamic tradition that are also considered to have "power". Islam has been the driving religious force in Indonesia for a fairly long time. Certainly i am aware that elements of the old world animistic pardigm still exist and that certain practices have remained, even if not quite out in the open.

Ben, thanks for your book suggestions. I will see if the title you recommend comes in English translation. Just so you understand, i have already read quite a lot on various magickal practices around the world, including books on Malay magickal practices. "Malay Magic" by Skeat and "The Malay Magician" by Winsedt provide some good information on magick in the Malay states. I am finding it difficult to find anything specifically of Jawa. "Visible and Invisible Realms" by Weiner and "Sekala and Niskala" by Eisman both give some interesting perspective into various practices on the mostly Hindu Bali.
Personally i would define white magick only as magick that is done in the service of the Creator. Black magick is anything that is done in the service of self. But there are many shades of gray here as well.
I am afraid that your suggestion that i leave this subject alone because not everyone can handle it is not acceptable to me. I appreciate you comments so far, but no one is holding you to this discussion. If it makes you feel uncomfortable i understand why you might not want to participate. As i stated before, my study of magick and it's practices around the world goes back far beyond my study of the keris. No one gains anything not discussing these matters. Superstitions, misunderstandings and fear only grow in our silences.