Dahb Thai, Japanese swords and hybrids

PUFF · 31st January 2007, 05:21 AM

Regarding to the southern Dahbs, they shared a similar fate as Dahbs from southern area of Lanna. Since Ayuthaya era, the region was under Siamese power for some period, they were self-rule for some period and they were fully governed by Siamese governer for some period. So, their craftsmanship was mixed up with Siamese's. Althoug the example at top of the rack do has Siamese profile with Lanna style hilt. But its detail 's a lot different from typical Lanna Dhabs. The hilt 's cast of brass with persian-style detail. And we do have another identical Dahb with a good reference that it was belong to a southern noble family.
Mark, you are very good in Dha ID. Even from a poor taken pic, you can ID it right. The third one also very Lanna'ish to me. The hilt was carved of wood in oval profile (instead of round profile as typical ones), very similar pattern to the silver one from Nan province (in Lanna area). Blade profile, decorative and scabbard remind me a Lanna blade. But the onwer do has good reference that the blade 's obtained from southern part of Thailand. And it was there for some good time. It 's possible that the blade was made to order, or brought to the area by "northern" folk.

Andrew · 31st January 2007, 01:17 PM

Once again, many thanks for sharing this information with us, Puff.

Tim Simmons · 31st January 2007, 05:50 PM

Very interesting and a little alarming. These pictures bring me back to this sword and why it was dismissed as no more than a snake killer

. Yes it is clearly latter in the 20th century but still a real weapon. I show it next to one that will meet with your approval. The more modern one is equally well tempered and although heavier can flex but not like the old one.

Mark · 1st February 2007, 01:12 AM

Thank you again for even more precious insight. I need to study these photos carefully, as I believe I have been mis-identifying some of my dahb.

I do see all the photos now. It must have been some small problem with my internet connection.

I came across an interesting piece of information while back about dha/dahb blades that "travel" far from where they were made, which may explain the northern style blade on a southern dahb. Sylvia Fraser-Lu, in Burmese Crafts, Past & Present (1994) (ISBN 0-19-588608-9) says:

Quote:

In the early twentieth century, Mong-Kung and Kehsi in the Southern Shan States produced blades which enjoyed a wide reputation throughout Burma. Many were exported to Thailand under the trade name of 'ham-ngai,' after the traders who bought the blades wholesale and fitted them with handles." P. 148

This refers to early 20th century blade trade, but I see no reason why it would not have been going on earlier. As you know, the "Shan" of Burma are in fact Tai, the "Shan States" of Burma being right next to Lanna. At many times they were in fact unified in whole or in part.

Another possible explanation could be found in the practice of deporting large groups of people, particularly skilled craftsmen, from conquered areas back to the conquerer's heart-land. In this case, the areas of Lanna and the adjacent Shan States changed hands several times between the Burmese and the Thai over the centuries, and it is not hard to believe that swordsmiths from Lanna (or the Shan States of Burma), were deported to the southern parts of the country.

How much of the ancient Thai swordmaking tradition (in the sense of history) is preserved? Are there still families of swordsmiths in these areas with a family history or tradition that would explain the movement and development of styles? I know such families still work in Aranyik - are there similar, living, swordmaking centers in for example Pisanulok or Lanna?

PUFF · 1st February 2007, 04:06 AM

Lanna Dahbs, in their scabbards.

Smiths migration 's, indeed, interesting. In previous meeting ago, we learned that there are steel tools (and weapons) making around Ayuthaya city center. During the 2nd sack of Ayuthaya, many smiths were ported to Burmese 's city. And some were killed. In the early Rattanakosin, during king Rama 2nd era, there were immigration of Lao 's smiths (gold, silver and steel). They settled down in the Ayuthaya area (which was an old city by then

). In the early of 20th cent., their steel products were dominant in the market as Aranyik 's product. In fact, Aranyik 's the name of a market/hub village where these people sold their products, the manufactoring place is PaiNong village

. Some were sold in Bangkok many were exported as far as Lao and Vietnam (some of us found them during search for Lao or Vietnam 's local sword). And, by now, Aranyik 's Lao sword design turned to be recognized as Dahb Thai.

Similar thing happened in Burman side, Ayuthaya (Yodia, in Burmese term) smiths made long hilt Dha which, today, can be found around Mandalay.

Lanna and southern Lanna smiths has a different story. As far as I know, Chiang Mai do not has its own sword making community (sounds odd, I need to do more research in this are). Many Dha, Dahb were imported from nearby cities, used to be Tai Shan cities (on Burman side) and LamPang (~100 miles south of ChiangMai). Not long ago, just after WWII, LamPang guilds got a huge order of Dahb Thai from Bangkok, which actually is Aranyik (Lao) style. Today, they still making both traditional Lanna and Aranyik 's Dahb Thai sword. There 's another sword making community in Utaradit, near an infamouse Nam-Pi iron ore deposite. But I think they got "infected" by Aranyik style by now.

Indeed, there were some smiths in the rural area which were not captured during the Ayuthaya 's 2nd sack. But they do not make weapons as a primary job. And, since king Rama 3rd, there were immigration of the Chinese. They come with chinese technique and go into the business. Scattered Siamese smiths gave up their business and ,so far, I could not find a single Siamese sword maker in my area.

RhysMichael · 2nd February 2007, 12:01 AM

A great discussion and I am learning a great deal as always from reading these. I would love to actually come to one of the lectures oneday. Thank you for sharing

Can you tell me more about this sword

It is in with dha but if not for that I would have called it a parang with a naga hilt. I had not seen one with a guard before but otherwise it looks Indonesian not Thai to me.

And this one seems to resemble hairpin folding seen on swords from parts of China and Tibet

PUFF · 2nd February 2007, 05:04 AM

I do agree with you that the piece shouldn't be classified as Dahb. But it 's not unique to the island part. Parang style weapons are also exist in mainland Malaya peninsular too. This one is a good example

The forge-weld blade 's made in wakisashi profile (3rd blade from top of this rack). It 's made with keris/badik technique. There is a document that in the 19th cent., similar blades were made and the Siamese king sent "keris-patterned Japanese sword" out as a diplomatic item.

31st January 2007, 05:21 AM	#1
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Regarding to the southern Dahbs, they shared a similar fate as Dahbs from southern area of Lanna. Since Ayuthaya era, the region was under Siamese power for some period, they were self-rule for some period and they were fully governed by Siamese governer for some period. So, their craftsmanship was mixed up with Siamese's. Althoug the example at top of the rack do has Siamese profile with Lanna style hilt. But its detail 's a lot different from typical Lanna Dhabs. The hilt 's cast of brass with persian-style detail. And we do have another identical Dahb with a good reference that it was belong to a southern noble family. Mark, you are very good in Dha ID. Even from a poor taken pic, you can ID it right. The third one also very Lanna'ish to me. The hilt was carved of wood in oval profile (instead of round profile as typical ones), very similar pattern to the silver one from Nan province (in Lanna area). Blade profile, decorative and scabbard remind me a Lanna blade. But the onwer do has good reference that the blade 's obtained from southern part of Thailand. And it was there for some good time. It 's possible that the blade was made to order, or brought to the area by "northern" folk. Last edited by PUFF; 1st February 2007 at 02:10 AM.

31st January 2007, 05:50 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,922	Very interesting and a little alarming. These pictures bring me back to this sword and why it was dismissed as no more than a snake killer . Yes it is clearly latter in the 20th century but still a real weapon. I show it next to one that will meet with your approval. The more modern one is equally well tempered and although heavier can flex but not like the old one. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 31st January 2007 at 06:13 PM.

2nd February 2007, 12:01 AM	#6
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	A great discussion and I am learning a great deal as always from reading these. I would love to actually come to one of the lectures oneday. Thank you for sharing Can you tell me more about this sword It is in with dha but if not for that I would have called it a parang with a naga hilt. I had not seen one with a guard before but otherwise it looks Indonesian not Thai to me. And this one seems to resemble hairpin folding seen on swords from parts of China and Tibet Last edited by RhysMichael; 2nd February 2007 at 12:18 AM.

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31st January 2007, 01:17 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Once again, many thanks for sharing this information with us, Puff.

1st February 2007, 04:06 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Lanna Dahbs, in their scabbards. Smiths migration 's, indeed, interesting. In previous meeting ago, we learned that there are steel tools (and weapons) making around Ayuthaya city center. During the 2nd sack of Ayuthaya, many smiths were ported to Burmese 's city. And some were killed. In the early Rattanakosin, during king Rama 2nd era, there were immigration of Lao 's smiths (gold, silver and steel). They settled down in the Ayuthaya area (which was an old city by then ). In the early of 20th cent., their steel products were dominant in the market as Aranyik 's product. In fact, Aranyik 's the name of a market/hub village where these people sold their products, the manufactoring place is PaiNong village . Some were sold in Bangkok many were exported as far as Lao and Vietnam (some of us found them during search for Lao or Vietnam 's local sword). And, by now, Aranyik 's Lao sword design turned to be recognized as Dahb Thai. Similar thing happened in Burman side, Ayuthaya (Yodia, in Burmese term) smiths made long hilt Dha which, today, can be found around Mandalay. Lanna and southern Lanna smiths has a different story. As far as I know, Chiang Mai do not has its own sword making community (sounds odd, I need to do more research in this are). Many Dha, Dahb were imported from nearby cities, used to be Tai Shan cities (on Burman side) and LamPang (~100 miles south of ChiangMai). Not long ago, just after WWII, LamPang guilds got a huge order of Dahb Thai from Bangkok, which actually is Aranyik (Lao) style. Today, they still making both traditional Lanna and Aranyik 's Dahb Thai sword. There 's another sword making community in Utaradit, near an infamouse Nam-Pi iron ore deposite. But I think they got "infected" by Aranyik style by now. Indeed, there were some smiths in the rural area which were not captured during the Ayuthaya 's 2nd sack. But they do not make weapons as a primary job. And, since king Rama 3rd, there were immigration of the Chinese. They come with chinese technique and go into the business. Scattered Siamese smiths gave up their business and ,so far, I could not find a single Siamese sword maker in my area.

2nd February 2007, 05:04 AM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I do agree with you that the piece shouldn't be classified as Dahb. But it 's not unique to the island part. Parang style weapons are also exist in mainland Malaya peninsular too. This one is a good example The forge-weld blade 's made in wakisashi profile (3rd blade from top of this rack). It 's made with keris/badik technique. There is a document that in the 19th cent., similar blades were made and the Siamese king sent "keris-patterned Japanese sword" out as a diplomatic item.