Help with talismanic inscriptions?

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2007, 07:25 PM

This design on the sword may be even more simple and obvious if you are a practicing Muslim or rather one familiar with the Islamic artistic cosmology. I am most certainly not. However one could see the design in two parts. The swirly part nearest the tip is a cloud which symbolises the sky, the portal to heaven. Heaven being one of several layers of gates in the celestial world. After heaven there is another portal the sun gate the divine light and leading to the throne of god.
The part nearest the hilt that I suggested was a dragon may still be so. But I now think it is most likely a representation of Eden. What I saw as scales though upside down, is the land/earth and from that the strange pattern is the garden of exotic flowers. These elements of Islamic iconography are not hard to find or I could have just lost my marbles

.

post script.

The centre or field of a this Kashmir carpet/prayer rug illustrates this quite well but there is a lot more room for the designer to explain themselves. The clouds are cearly seen outside the dome {mirhab} the garden in this case a tree and known in the carpet world as the tree of life.

Battara · 30th January 2007, 01:31 AM

Never thought of that......something to consider.

Dajak · 30th January 2007, 04:45 AM

Hi Tim It s nice the tree of life but is it talismanic does it brings you power in a battle .

That s what I don t think so I don t think it is talasmanic

but maybe I am wrong so I like to know

Ben

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 07:19 AM

Battle and paradise have been linked by many people and cultures throughout history. To me this imagery on an Islamic weapon is pretty much the same as a sacred heart or other device/talisman on a European saber. The imagery fits the concept of cultural belief. I believe to be killed in battle, the warrior goes straight to paradise/heaven.

VVV · 30th January 2007, 07:57 AM

The tree of life/central pillar/axis mundi is a very important both archaic and universal symbol for comparing different religions according to the leading authority within this field - Mircea Eliade. In short it's the center of the world, the connection point between the heaven (where "the Sacred" reside), the earth (humans) and often the underworld. Compare Jacob's ladder, Gunungan etc.

Seeing the scales/eggs as clouds, symbolising heaven, is maybe a key to this riddle?
On the "figures" inbetween an interpretation could be that they somehow represents something dualistic, like + - + -.
To have an idea what it could be of course you have to know more about the local myths and beliefs than I do at the moment. Maybe if somebody knows something about local creation myths a theory could be developed? An example could be if f.i. at the time of creation some divine force created two men and two females from where all humans origin?

Not knowing if this is the case a hypothesis of this inlay as talismanic could be:

At the base of the Kris (heaven, the Sacred?) is something of a "battery/power source" that transmits some kind of energy (the + - + -). This energy is transformed into a (earth - vegetative, creative) force (birth-life-death) that is pointed at an enemy in battle to powercharge this Kris.

If the + - + - represents male and female ancestors then we have a metaphysical "nuclear missile launcher"?

Michael

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 11:04 AM

The scales/eggs are the garden of Eden/paradise and the clouds the sky and gateway to the divine light and throne of god.
I am turning into a carpet salesman

. They do help explain Islamic iconography. With this Turkish example the same message is behind a much more formal arrangement. The garden/paradise is a single plant in a pedestal bowl. Kashmir to Turkey is nearly as far as Kashmir to PI echoing the spread of Islam. I bet if members look they will see more of this stylised motif on other weapons.

VVV · 30th January 2007, 01:09 PM

Tim,

As you have noticed I got inspired by your tree of life interpretation of the inlay.
But I am more hesitant to the "backwards symbolism" of sending yourself to heaven from earth with the help of this sword.
I find it more probable that the owner wished to survive and the sword to send the opponent to hell instead.

From what little I have been exposed to Filipino culture I have seen more of positive thinking than negative thinking of the outcome of battles.
In the case of Juramentado I have the impression that the blades they used were not as expensive and high status like this?

Michael

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 03:12 PM

I am sure it would be a positive thing. like all mottoes on weapons. God is always on your side.

29th January 2007, 07:25 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I may be losing it here but This design on the sword may be even more simple and obvious if you are a practicing Muslim or rather one familiar with the Islamic artistic cosmology. I am most certainly not. However one could see the design in two parts. The swirly part nearest the tip is a cloud which symbolises the sky, the portal to heaven. Heaven being one of several layers of gates in the celestial world. After heaven there is another portal the sun gate the divine light and leading to the throne of god. The part nearest the hilt that I suggested was a dragon may still be so. But I now think it is most likely a representation of Eden. What I saw as scales though upside down, is the land/earth and from that the strange pattern is the garden of exotic flowers. These elements of Islamic iconography are not hard to find or I could have just lost my marbles . post script. The centre or field of a this Kashmir carpet/prayer rug illustrates this quite well but there is a lot more room for the designer to explain themselves. The clouds are cearly seen outside the dome {mirhab} the garden in this case a tree and known in the carpet world as the tree of life. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th January 2007 at 07:48 PM.

30th January 2007, 07:19 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Battle and paradise have been linked by many people and cultures throughout history. To me this imagery on an Islamic weapon is pretty much the same as a sacred heart or other device/talisman on a European saber. The imagery fits the concept of cultural belief. I believe to be killed in battle, the warrior goes straight to paradise/heaven. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th January 2007 at 10:44 AM.

30th January 2007, 07:57 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The tree of life/central pillar/axis mundi is a very important both archaic and universal symbol for comparing different religions according to the leading authority within this field - Mircea Eliade. In short it's the center of the world, the connection point between the heaven (where "the Sacred" reside), the earth (humans) and often the underworld. Compare Jacob's ladder, Gunungan etc. Seeing the scales/eggs as clouds, symbolising heaven, is maybe a key to this riddle? On the "figures" inbetween an interpretation could be that they somehow represents something dualistic, like + - + -. To have an idea what it could be of course you have to know more about the local myths and beliefs than I do at the moment. Maybe if somebody knows something about local creation myths a theory could be developed? An example could be if f.i. at the time of creation some divine force created two men and two females from where all humans origin? Not knowing if this is the case a hypothesis of this inlay as talismanic could be: At the base of the Kris (heaven, the Sacred?) is something of a "battery/power source" that transmits some kind of energy (the + - + -). This energy is transformed into a (earth - vegetative, creative) force (birth-life-death) that is pointed at an enemy in battle to powercharge this Kris. If the + - + - represents male and female ancestors then we have a metaphysical "nuclear missile launcher"? Michael Last edited by VVV; 30th January 2007 at 08:34 AM.

30th January 2007, 03:12 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I am sure it would be a positive thing. like all mottoes on weapons. God is always on your side. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th January 2007 at 07:02 PM. Reason: spelling

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30th January 2007, 01:31 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Never thought of that......something to consider.

30th January 2007, 04:45 AM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Tim It s nice the tree of life but is it talismanic does it brings you power in a battle . That s what I don t think so I don t think it is talasmanic but maybe I am wrong so I like to know Ben

30th January 2007, 11:04 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	The scales/eggs are the garden of Eden/paradise and the clouds the sky and gateway to the divine light and throne of god. I am turning into a carpet salesman . They do help explain Islamic iconography. With this Turkish example the same message is behind a much more formal arrangement. The garden/paradise is a single plant in a pedestal bowl. Kashmir to Turkey is nearly as far as Kashmir to PI echoing the spread of Islam. I bet if members look they will see more of this stylised motif on other weapons.

30th January 2007, 01:09 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Tim, As you have noticed I got inspired by your tree of life interpretation of the inlay. But I am more hesitant to the "backwards symbolism" of sending yourself to heaven from earth with the help of this sword. I find it more probable that the owner wished to survive and the sword to send the opponent to hell instead. From what little I have been exposed to Filipino culture I have seen more of positive thinking than negative thinking of the outcome of battles. In the case of Juramentado I have the impression that the blades they used were not as expensive and high status like this? Michael