Blades and horseshoes??!!

[Gt Obach]

Hi
making some assumptions here... - that the material is wrought iron... of high quality.
in my opinion it would be very desirable for blade making... a high quality wrought iron in a damascus mix... for example... a file steel will have a very high carbon level.. to cut it down abit for a sword blade, i'd mix in some wrought iron into the folding process. After so many welding heats, the carbon kinda evens out and you have a lovely folded pattern in the blade.

are the horse shoes and nails carburized ?

reason i ask is that maybe a good reason to add them if they are..

if you've used some very low quality wrought iron... and tried to make a nail out of it... you'd have a very hard time to hammer it through wood without predrilling a hole... .. it would be like hammering a copper nail into wood... it would buckle if too much resistance is there...

maybe the same is of horse shoes.. they maybe of a high quality wrought iron..... unlike some of the wagon wheels/tires ...those are usually low quality
I imagine that the horses feet would also test out the wrought for any weaknesses or large slag inclusions ... like a proof test

also for a sword steel ... you want a very high quality wrought iron/steel..... look at the japanese swords... very high quality bloom steels..... with many folds to make the steel as homogeneous as possible.

by folding the bloom over and over... you turn a low quality muck bar/wrought iron into a higher quality wrought.(very fine and numerous strands)
-- wrought iron chains are usually high quality

so by starting out with a decent quality wrought iron... you'd spare yourself alot of work folding muck bar into a better wrought iron

Wrought iron is a beautiful material to add to damascus... because it loves to forge weld ... it sticks like glue with very little flux..... due to the self fluxing nature of the siliceous slags in the metal..... with good welds... you increase your chance of a very good sword !

after the welding process is done... you'd have a hard time telling what materials were used... as long as the carbon level is decent for a sword... -you could etch the sword to look for pattern welds... but if it was folded many times, it may be very homogenous
-- I think the Polish sabers were very good ... so the smiths must have known what they were doing...

Recycling is also important... good iron and steels, it only makes sense to reuse them..

- i still to this day hunt for wrought iron... over the holidays i brought back a 2foot by 1"by1/4" bar of wrought on the plane ride back... (checked luggage ofcourse)

take care
Greg

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Greg,

I have never seen that horse shoes were used for ingots, so I have always presumed that they were used then forging a blade – and one more thing, the horse shoes used then, could have been made of different iron than used for the shoes to day, and this could mean a different end result.

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Greg,

It seems that I have seen that horseshoes and nails were used directly in crucibles, but I did not think of it, the reason must be that it was not horseshoes, but mule shoes.

Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, pages 41-79. On page 61 a recipe is given where some of the things, which should be used, are mule shoes and nails. Other old recipes on how to make crucibles are also given.

[Gt Obach]

thanks Jens

that is a good reference.

seems like recycling of metal has deep roots !

Greg

[Jim McDougall]

Just located another interesting item concerning superstition and folklore as applied to weapons, in 19th c. Sweden and certainly considerable time prior;
"...in Swedish folklore rifles were associated with various popular and magical beliefs, mostly concerning the ability of the weapons to hit and kill its target. The rifle itself could be a magical item, For example the material a good rifle barrel should be made of, should contain nails from a cemetary, a piece of silver, bones from an executed man and coffin nails".

taken from Pers-Anders Ostling, "Rifles in Swedish Folklore:Magical Properties of Weapons", in Vol.#4 2003, p.26, "Varia: Journal of the Swedish Arms & Armour Society".

While obviously pertaining to firearms, I have simply included this item to illustrate superstitious concepts often applied to weapons, which extended of course in many cases even more so to edged weapons. The inclusion of various botanicals believed to possess key metaphysical properties into the processing of steel is well described by Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", and it there are likely many other instances that may be found in other cultures, certainly in the Indonesian cultural sphere.

While excellent suggestions have been presented in the discussion that describe the dynamics of metallurgy and the adding of forged metal from such sources as nails and horseshoes from practical standpoint, I feel that the folklore perspective may have a degree of plausibility as well. Although we view such topics with much more scientific perspective today, I think we must remember the environment in which such things were viewed in the period we are considering.

While the blacksmiths were probably using the materials we are discussing with sound reason and for reasons known only unto themselves, those who described these processes in many cases certainly embellished these descriptions imbued with thier own limited knowledge of the procedures as well as thier own superstitious beliefs.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,

As always these threads have me intrigued. Now let me turn it around on you. Instead of horseshoes being used for their magical properties, how about the magical (superstitious) properties of horseshoes coming from their practical properties. A townsman observing a blacksmith hammering old beat up shoes into a magnificent weapon, would have to conclude there must be some old magics in them thar shoes.

Just for fun
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

I enjoy 'em too Jeff! and that is exactly what I had in mind, surely the simple perception of the blacksmith, already typically regarded as a somewhat sinister character, throwing old horseshoes into the mix and creating these deadly blades, probably might have meant there were some key powers in those shoes.

Finally find this reference (and the library is now in shambles It would seem there are many superstitious allusions concerning horseshoes in folklore from ancient times that evolved into local folklore;
"...horseshoes are nailed with seven iron nails. Seven is probably the most important number in the world of superstition. The nails used by the blacksmith have magic as powerful as the horseshoe itself. Rings made from these nails are said to give the same protection against evil as the horsehoe. When you put a 'found' (important that you 'find' it) horseshoe on a barn as an amulet, you are following in the footsteps of the Greeks and Romans who believed firmly in the protective powers of the horseshoe".

from "Knock on Wood: n Encyclopedia of Talismans, Charms, Supersitions & Symbols", Carole Potter, N.Y.1983, p.104.

When you go into the folklore and myths around these weapons, and the interpretation of the talismanic and cabalistic markings on the blades of them, it becomes fascinating to see the parallels in these beliefs in the 'civilized' world to similar applications in the tribal worlds. Think for example of the distinctive geometric designs on the flyssa, intended for protection from the evil eye, for one.

Knowledge and study of such folklore is often key to clues in arms and armor research, and really does take the fascination, intrigue and yup! fun!! to profound dimensions.

Thanks for always keepin' it that way Jeff!!!!

All the best,
Jim