Help with talismanic inscriptions?

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2007, 09:38 PM

Hi, sorry i made a mistake about the name, it is Dr. Ann Feuerbach – sorry Ann.

Jens

Dajak · 25th January 2007, 08:45 PM

Michael do you have the Stone book ?

At the keris part is a story that tells how that the Dutch people could tell if an kris brings luck or brings bad luck

Ben

Battara · 27th January 2007, 07:40 PM

Sorry I've been away - 'puter problems.

I have been looking through research and can only take a guess at some of this. They could be moon symbols with some other meaning or a special plant motif.

That being said, I agree with Kai 100% (good job Kai).

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 06:34 PM

This thread is fascinating!!! and although considerably outside my usual field or range of study, the topic is widely applied to virtually all forms of ethnographic weapons, as Jens has very aptly noted. As he suggests, material culture often survives and as we know is collected, with the motif and symbolic decoration losing the original meaning as the items leave thier original environment.
I think it is great to see the outstanding knowledge shared here working together to develop plausible and likely explanations concerning this example and the topic overall. It is exciting to learn more on this as it certainly is beneficial to incorporate the same perspective and theories in all aspects and theaters of ethnographic weapons study!

As an admittedly 'untrained' eye on Moro weapons, I would like to nonetheless suggest that to me the motif seems to overall follow the contour of the blade, and the outside or border motif does seem decorative in its linear and repetitive form. The figures within the border however do seem to reflect some symbolic possibility, with some possibility of anthromorphic forms as has been mentioned. It does seem to me that the semicircular motif in the 'border' may have, as suggested, nagan connotation.

I very much look forward to any response on these views, as well as the development of this discussion as I would like to learn more on the symbolism of these weapons. Its great to broaden horizons!!

Thanks very much guys!!

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2007, 05:57 PM

Looking in a few books on the art of regions surrounding and relevant to this sword. I think it may not be too far fetched to see the design as a stylisation of a Naga/Dragon which is indeed common to this part of the world. It may be so stylised to be inoffensive to a more strict Muslim environment. This dramatic stylisation of fantastic beasts and sky motiffs is common in other Islamic art forms. Most easily brought to mind is the carpet, incompassing much Islamic design. I will try and add more after my tea.

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2007, 07:25 PM

This design on the sword may be even more simple and obvious if you are a practicing Muslim or rather one familiar with the Islamic artistic cosmology. I am most certainly not. However one could see the design in two parts. The swirly part nearest the tip is a cloud which symbolises the sky, the portal to heaven. Heaven being one of several layers of gates in the celestial world. After heaven there is another portal the sun gate the divine light and leading to the throne of god.
The part nearest the hilt that I suggested was a dragon may still be so. But I now think it is most likely a representation of Eden. What I saw as scales though upside down, is the land/earth and from that the strange pattern is the garden of exotic flowers. These elements of Islamic iconography are not hard to find or I could have just lost my marbles

.

post script.

The centre or field of a this Kashmir carpet/prayer rug illustrates this quite well but there is a lot more room for the designer to explain themselves. The clouds are cearly seen outside the dome {mirhab} the garden in this case a tree and known in the carpet world as the tree of life.

Battara · 30th January 2007, 01:31 AM

Never thought of that......something to consider.

29th January 2007, 05:57 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Looking in a few books on the art of regions surrounding and relevant to this sword. I think it may not be too far fetched to see the design as a stylisation of a Naga/Dragon which is indeed common to this part of the world. It may be so stylised to be inoffensive to a more strict Muslim environment. This dramatic stylisation of fantastic beasts and sky motiffs is common in other Islamic art forms. Most easily brought to mind is the carpet, incompassing much Islamic design. I will try and add more after my tea. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th January 2007 at 06:41 PM.

29th January 2007, 07:25 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I may be losing it here but This design on the sword may be even more simple and obvious if you are a practicing Muslim or rather one familiar with the Islamic artistic cosmology. I am most certainly not. However one could see the design in two parts. The swirly part nearest the tip is a cloud which symbolises the sky, the portal to heaven. Heaven being one of several layers of gates in the celestial world. After heaven there is another portal the sun gate the divine light and leading to the throne of god. The part nearest the hilt that I suggested was a dragon may still be so. But I now think it is most likely a representation of Eden. What I saw as scales though upside down, is the land/earth and from that the strange pattern is the garden of exotic flowers. These elements of Islamic iconography are not hard to find or I could have just lost my marbles . post script. The centre or field of a this Kashmir carpet/prayer rug illustrates this quite well but there is a lot more room for the designer to explain themselves. The clouds are cearly seen outside the dome {mirhab} the garden in this case a tree and known in the carpet world as the tree of life. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th January 2007 at 07:48 PM.

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24th January 2007, 09:38 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi, sorry i made a mistake about the name, it is Dr. Ann Feuerbach – sorry Ann. Jens

25th January 2007, 08:45 PM	#2
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Michael do you have the Stone book ? At the keris part is a story that tells how that the Dutch people could tell if an kris brings luck or brings bad luck Ben

27th January 2007, 07:40 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Sorry I've been away - 'puter problems. I have been looking through research and can only take a guess at some of this. They could be moon symbols with some other meaning or a special plant motif. That being said, I agree with Kai 100% (good job Kai).

28th January 2007, 06:34 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This thread is fascinating!!! and although considerably outside my usual field or range of study, the topic is widely applied to virtually all forms of ethnographic weapons, as Jens has very aptly noted. As he suggests, material culture often survives and as we know is collected, with the motif and symbolic decoration losing the original meaning as the items leave thier original environment. I think it is great to see the outstanding knowledge shared here working together to develop plausible and likely explanations concerning this example and the topic overall. It is exciting to learn more on this as it certainly is beneficial to incorporate the same perspective and theories in all aspects and theaters of ethnographic weapons study! As an admittedly 'untrained' eye on Moro weapons, I would like to nonetheless suggest that to me the motif seems to overall follow the contour of the blade, and the outside or border motif does seem decorative in its linear and repetitive form. The figures within the border however do seem to reflect some symbolic possibility, with some possibility of anthromorphic forms as has been mentioned. It does seem to me that the semicircular motif in the 'border' may have, as suggested, nagan connotation. I very much look forward to any response on these views, as well as the development of this discussion as I would like to learn more on the symbolism of these weapons. Its great to broaden horizons!! Thanks very much guys!! All the best, Jim

30th January 2007, 01:31 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Never thought of that......something to consider.