Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Yannis

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

Dont be sorry, its ok with me. If I couldnt cope with opinions of others i wouldnt have ever joined this forum. We all have them after all.

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

It would be like asknig for my opnion abouts aboriginal weapons or swords of the congo, I would have an opinion , but because the reality is I have no expierience in those areas my opinion would be worthless for factual identification.


It appears so far no one here has any expierience of cast figural european daggers of the 19th century here ? whether occult or otherwise. .

Or any one ever owned such an example? got a book with photos in even?

Anyone? Anything of any substance? whatsoever?


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

Excelent Tim, I am relieved you regard my piece as "franklin mint"

I try not to comment on the quality of items you usualy show.

Thanks for the figural knife, photo as poor as it is it helps proove my point! the scabbard is viewed handle upright!

One can see that from the man figured on the scabbard.

excelent.

many thanks for supporting my case.

Spiral

[katana]

If we stick with the idea this dagger is 'Esmeralda themed' I believe further symbolism can be infered.

Esmeralda, is a gypsy, considered a heathen and 'god less' by the Parisians.

Frollo, a principle character, is a priest at Notre Dame, whom because of his carnal desires for Esmeralda, which she ignores, ends up being instrumental in her demise. This member of the church is shown to be weak, an abuser of his position and acts in an 'un-christian' manner towards her.

When Esmeralda first escapes her captors she is taken to Notre Dame to seek 'sanctuary', (whilst in the grounds of the church, the 'law' cannot apprehend her). But later the 'sanctuary' is rescinded and she loses the protection of the church, and is re-captured.

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

[katana]

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"

Thanks Katana,

The top one is one I illustrated earlier in the thread Katana. With links to the website its on.

Apparently thats nearer the usual quality of satanic dagger if you speak the people who collect such things.

The French short sword has 2 fullers, there the reasemblace ends. They are very diffent from the cross sectional profile of the occult daggers that I started this thread with.

I have lots of kukri with fullers that to many people,all look the same, but there are many differences if one studys them.

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

Thanks Katana,

The top one is one I illustrated earlier in the thread Katana. With links to the website its on.

Spiral

Ooops

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.

As I said that my opinions have the same worth as others, that is the recognition of the truth. I can tell what is opinion & what isnt.Whether mine or others. Opinions are merly that, unless the come from a person familiar & expierinced with what is bieng discused. In this case a 19th century European cast Figural knife.

I was hoping that amongst the forumites there might be some one who could provide facts or evidence, about such as figural pieces in which the scabbard would be in the manner Jim first describded, before I questined him on it & offered further examples of Figural pieces, which so far all imply that the church is upside down. Just like the liberty torch on another exampale.

Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud.

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}

Deduction of opinion is still just opinion, intresting yes but unless it comes from someone with expierience it would be like getting a koto katana judged by an African weapons collector. Intresting but possibly wrong & would be tootaly worthless as an appraisel.Whearas if Rich Stein if he had an opinion about it , it would have a much greater weight as he is expierienced in the subject.

As I said in the Rhino thread I always appreciate people who have had lots of hans on expeirience & study there subject in depth. {As I am sure you do with krisses or whatever it is you are into.}


Spiral

Ps.

After the discusian of fullers Heres a couple of fellers with a kukri with a rather well done fuller.



It definatly a keeper, same as this figural knife.

Spiral

[katana]

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by katana

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

As I mentioned above the inverted cross can either be a satanic symbol or seen as St Peters Cross depending on context and interpretation. I do not know where the picture was taken but if it was somewhere like St Peters Basilica such a cross would make sense ( and I do not know if the church at the Mount of Beatitudes would have such an association to St Peter) . There is also a St Andrews cross which is like an X ( and this one has a very different interpretation, other than the catholic church one, also that is probably not a good subject for this forum) Both St Andrew and St Peter as the story goes requested to be crucified on a different cross than Christ because they did not feel worthy of dying in the exact same manner he did.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

The Catholic church does, have problems, The inverted cross you feature appears on many websites pointing that out.

Spiral

[spiral]

Turning a cross upside down is also a common feature of the black mass.

Turning a church upside down doesnt appear represent a belief in christianity.

Spiral

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by katana

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........

[David]

[QUOTE=spiral
Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud.

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}[/QUOTE]

Well it must be later indeed, since i haven't the foggiest notion what you are on about in this first paragrah.
I am afraid that presenting 2 or 3 examples with the figural scabbards viewed handle up is hardly evidence that ALL figural scabbards are intended to be viewed this way. The only fact is that the few examples you have provided point this way. I still think that the church is oriented this way on your scabbard because it is the logical direction given the shape of the object depicted. It just makes sense that the steeple point should be the point of the scabbard. That is, however, merely opinion.
Since you harp on the years of my study, in my 30 yrs. of occult study i have never seen an upside down church used as a symbol of satanism. Certainly crosses have been used that way, but has already been pointed out, the inverse cross is also the cross of St. Peter, so it is merely a matter of perspective. The same can be said of the pentagram The owl is generally looked upon as a positive symbol in most western magical circles. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. Sigils and magickal or arcane alphabets and talismanic signs are more often used to empower ritual items. I see no such signs on any of these daggers.
If you look hard enough one can find 'satanists" everywhere. The church certain did a good job at it for centuries.

[spiral]

[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?}


Spiral

Dont mind about the eggy landlord, he knows, thats what matters.

[David]

[QUOTE=spiralRather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?}
[/QUOTE]

Actually no Spiral, more rather like this. This is, of course, a modern ritual dagger, but it is based on a 19thC design.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists".

[katana]

[QUOTE=spiral]

Originally Posted by David

. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

Spiral

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

[Jim McDougall]

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra!

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys

All best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Spiral!

Some more opinions...followed by the start of some cold, hard facts..

Looking at your priestess/Esmeralda figure, she seems rather sensual and "nice" doesn't she? I mean a good person caressing her pet goat. She certainly doesn't bear the look of a crazed hooded priestess about to slaughter an animal...look at the paintings of the Sacrifice of Isaac (is it?) by Abraham, he is tied and unable to move the same for the lamb he slaughters instead, tied animal. Even the sacrifices of goats and bulls by Nepalis are tied and held so as not to move. This here goat is actually fawning all over her would be executioner. If the figure were grasping the dagger at her waist then I would agree she could be about to commit sacrifice but otherwise...

Now the facts are coming...just saw a pic of an early "gothic dagger" in the Reubell Collection (Bashford, Dean. The Reubell Collection of Court Swords and Early Daggers, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 21, No. 10. (1926): 228-233) the scabbard is heavily carved and sculpted horizontally so the dagger is held horizontally in this case, obviously for display I think. Doesn't have the figural hilt, which in this case looks Swiss.
I've also found the index of a catalogue in my library with an illustrated ornamented early gothic dagger. Will get it in a few hours and scan pics, that should provide some eyecandy and facts.

That's John Powell behind you isn't it? The Nahan Sirmoor looks beautiful in hand, that's some niiice khukri
Emanuel

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra!

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys

All best regards,
Jim

I agrre opinions are worthwhile in a discusian, I just recognise in science they are & law they are niether empirical evidence nor expert oppinion. {in US legal terms.}

I agree the point about Esmerelda could have some validity. As I stated to Katana earlier post.

Spiral