Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[spiral]

Well most satanic knives are made of recycled or older blades. perhaps they already carried the symbolism as a used weapon?

The threading into the blade is incredibly tight & would certanly not be weakend by a couple of ribs. it is a short tang but locks up incredibly solid.

sure it wouldnt last years of wood chopping but a direct stab, {as all daggers & bayonets are designed for} wouldnt be a problem.

its steel threaded into steel on a 6mm diameter bar. 8mm deep I think an engineer could point out that that is a fairly strong fixing for a dagger.


i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.

even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!



Spiral

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by spiral

i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.
even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!
Spiral

I don't reject satanic daggers having been around and it makes sense to me since the dagger is used in so many different cultural rituals that it too would be used in satanic ones. I do think they would have been very covert items as simply being in the vicinity of one could be cause for execution as a heretic.

I said above I believe there is historical evidence of satanic cults. I agree with David that the accounts were probably exaggerated and the accusations were abused. Those actually involved may have been the ones seeming most pious to their neighbors. Think about when a criminal is caught today and the neighbors talk about how they were always quiet and never caused issues or problems.

I am however open to debate on what the true meaning of the symbols on this dagger are

[spiral]

Agreed!

So am I, but lets face it with 20 odd naysyers it wouldnt be much of a discusian if i didnt at least play devils advocate.

Evidence is usefull , conjecture when informed is as well.

Opinions, based on upbringing whether mine or yours, are quite worthless as thats all they are. Especialy if faith becomes involved.


Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.l

Well this is the crux of the matter for me. You say "satanists or whatever they may be called". Once the church gained enough power to rule over large groups of people there most probably arose opposition to their power. The church certainly would consider these people satanist. But they also considered practitioners of any pagan religion satanists. Yet these people were not satanists, that is to say their god or gods were not satan. Certainly these people used knives, but there is not much evidence that they used them in any particular non-Christian rituals. As i mentioned earlier, the dagger as a ritual tool does not really come into mode until relatively recent times, that is, the 19thC. Sure, perhaps a knife would be used in an animal sacrifice, but if this were done in the context of some pagan rite it is unlikely that a knife would be created with such obvious pagan symbolism as to possibly bring down the wrath on the inquisition if such an item were found. Pagans of old were common people who used common tools in ritual ways when it was called for. I have serious doubts that there was much human sacrifice going in Christian Europe, unless, of course, you count the witch burnings and the Albigensian Crusade ("Kill them all...God will know his own"). So i think there is a reason why knives such as these don't seem to appear until the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the Age of Enlightenment. At this time many sercet societies were forming. To the common god-fearing Christian they may have appeared "satanic", but i doubt many of them were. Some, perhaps. There is nothing on any of these knives that couldn't be used by some esorteric mystical lodge whose beliefs, in essence may have even been Christian. Skull and cross bones, snakes,owls images of Pan, none of these point to a satanic origin. ALL of them could be used by a satanist, but so could church regalia if used in a disrespectful manner.
I certainly believe many of these daggers have an occult origin and significance. My argument is that they should not be called "satanic". I suggest "occult dagger" instead. That being said, i would still vote for the "Hunchback" story in regards to your dagger Spiral.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with David, perhaps the term 'occult' would be a much better 'working description' for studying these daggers employed ceremonially by certain groups, referring to the athame of course.
In the case of Spiral's dagger, I am inclined to agree that it is most likely a 19th century theme dagger that reflects the same literary inspiration seen in the early Swiss daggers referenced in my earlier post. The Victorian period is well known for heightened romanticism of this nature and the popularization of 'Gothic literature' . On that note, I very much like the literary detection done by Katana! I am quite convinced that Yannis' observation of the depiction of Esmeralda on this dagger is correct and extremely astute!

I also think that this thread has become extremely interesting, especially since much of the ritual and ceremonial use of the 'athame' corresponds with the metaphysical aspects of certain weapons of this type in numerous cultures, with the Tibetan 'phurbu' as an example. In this sense I think these daggers, despite somewhat sinister associations as interpreted may well be considered worthy of discussion in ethnographic perspective. I also think that the impressive posts that everyone has placed on this thread reveals the comprehensive knowledge of the membership here on even the most esoteric topics and begs to differ with the question of whether this dagger should have been posted on an ethnographic forum....and I am very glad that Spiral did post it here!
Excellent thread guys!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Yannis]

Since I wrote the “Huchback” opinion, there are 3 more evidences to agree with it.
1. The knife in the belt, as Katana wrote
2. The item she holds is a tambourine. Please notice the circles.
3. I asked about the dress code of this woman and they told me that only the lower part of society (like a gipsy) would dress like this on the streets of central Europe in early 19th century. Even Disney studios knows that.

Also, the half man half goat figure is Pan, the ancient Greek god of shepherds and their flocks. He became “satanic” symbol when Christians took the political power. His sins were he enjoyed music, dance and making love in the woods. 2000 years later these are still crimes for some minds.
BTW the word “panic” comes from his name because he could inspire fear if he wished so. So he was a great ally for warriors. Athenians believed that with his help won the Marathon battle when Persians lost their guts.