Balinese kris from Polish Museum

[wolviex]

Thank you all for help!
DAHenkel, your concrete and complex replies are very helpful. Writing about curious "pitting" effect you mean probably - let's call it - visible "ironmoulds". Maybe I'll try to post another picture of the other side of the blade, there, as you will see, this "pittings" are almost regular. Well, I don't think these are real corosion ironmoulds, do you think it's made with acid, any other ideas ??

And returning to my questions form the beginning of this thread. The hilt is very thick, that can barely fit to my hand. Are all the balinese hilts of this type so thick ? It's very uncomfortable, even if it was used only for representation purposes.

Thank you in advance!

[wolviex]

Photos I promised to post: another side of blade with visible, almost regular in some part of the blade stains/pittings. And close-up photo of one of them.

So any ideas what it could be, and how it was made?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Gee, Wolviex I keep admiring how these nice Malay pieces come out of the Polish museums, I think I solved the mistery ... hmm I am wondering if some sort of Przewalski guy from your hometown fall for some Balinese erotic dancer and when she run away he got mad and try to find some local stuff to beat the crap out of her and then the European in him brought it all back to Polska ... lol , forgive me I got carried away by envy ...

[Ian]

Wolviex:

I refrain from commenting on keris because I am most ignorant with respect to these weapons. But that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?

Ian.

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Ian

that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?
Ian.

Ian: that's what I'm trying to find out . So now let's wait together, maybe one of our friends from "kris sindicate" will have some ideas about it

[Ian]

for word from the illuminati, there was a nice discussion before of Mohammed's Ladder (kirk narduban) and wootz blades here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000490.html

There is no reason I can see why the same pattern could not be created with pattern welded steel.

ian.

[DAHenkel]

I've been refraining from comment on this in the hopes that s/o with specific knowledge of keris metallurgy would chime in. Its an area in which I have no real specialist knowledge however, the curious consistency of the "pamor" metal on this blade suggests to me high silicate levels.

Could this then be meteoritic? It would certainly suggest a reason for the high esteem of this particular blade.

Empu Kumis! Where are you?

[nechesh]

Well Dave, be prepared to be shocked. While i have certainly found passing mention of gonjo iras it is usually just to say something like, this blade is "gonjo iras meaning that it was formed in a single piece with the blade" (The Invincible Krises, pg 104). Never have i come across an explanation for this form. While i appreciate the inclination towards laziness (i am a card carrying member of that club myself ) i am afraid that "chapter and verse" would be really handy here. I am also afraid (much to my chagrin) that i have not had the opportunity to pick up any first-hand information taking with people around the archipelego, but those i have discussed this subject with who have had that opportunity (the dreaded second-hand information ) have not come to your conclusion. Though i don't necessarily agree with this train of thought, it would seem that the popular mystical belief of today as put forth by Harsrinuksmo would be that keris gonjo iras are not true keris at all. See rule #1 on this website: http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisology.htm
Of course, what is believed true by the mystical community in regards to keris today is not necessarily what was believed last century or the one before that or the one before that. Still, i would like to find at least a single written reference that directly addresses this subject.

[DAHenkel]

Definition of iras: short form of se-iras or in one piece or as one with. In other words keris ganja iras do have a ganja. It is one with or forged together with the rest of the blade.

Do come out and visit the tanah air some time Nechesh. Smell the air, taste the water, kick the dirt around a little and talk to some folks.

[tom hyle]

I think I've seen the ladder pattern from every culture that I've seen manipulate layered steel for pattern; Europe, N Africa, Tartaric, Hindoo, Chinese, Japanese, Oceanic SE Asian (not sure about the mainland, but I can hardly imagine it wouldn't....), and the more I see, the more widely I see steel manipulated for pattern wherever it is forged into blades (subsaharan Africa is the "blank" area; perhaps for lack of testing [the "African art" people invariably love the dark patina], perhaps for the legendary purity of the African iron thus not learning folding, etc.; thoughts on that one; very little real input. The c19 Ethiopian army spear I etched is quite homogenous, but other African blades I've seen display welding flaws and rust-etching that makes straight/straightish layering visible.). I've seen laddered pamor on quite a few k(e)ris. The wootz faction are probably correct that wootz/bulat is "true"ly the Damascus steel spoken of in old Europe; the "magical" (ie. different) steel of the East (this is nearly certain, as the other famous "Eastern" steel blade technologies like folding and welded edges, were also in common/general use in Europe, fading slowly during and after the 18thc.), but they are very likely dead wrong that only a wootz blade would be "truly" ladder of the prophet (BTW there are many expressions in many languages to refer to this religious symbol); certainly the same technique is used, in at least some of the same cultures, to make pretty much the same pattern on folded steel, and isn't it made in cloth and wood carvings, too, for that matter? Aside; I once had an old khoumiya with a lineal laminate blade that had been buffed in bands to imitate laddered steel. Faked pattern on what could now be viewed as "Damascus" steel. It was an older 20th piece, and a fakery of this sort was more likely for the native market, it seems to me....
BTW, I'm told that in Persia and/or Turkey it was a traditionally admired and sought after (and by no means universally achieved) goal to fit actually "40 steps", which is not so big a deal on a sword, though a lot of work, but on an 8" kard blade.....

[tom hyle]

You might want to check out the keris competition thread just posted.

[nechesh]

Wolviex, I wonder if you could provide us with a bit more information about this piece. Firstly, exactly where and when was it collected? Any chance the museum knows from whom it was obtained? Has the metal in the pendok and topengan ever been tested? Do we know for sure that it is solid gold is could it be plated? Have you ever had the pendok off the gander and looked inside? Have you found out any more about the stones in the eyes? Lastly, and this is directed at our keris group in general, is it possible that this hilt could not be Balinese at all, but the Madurese form of this particular style? It is shorter and fatter than the typical Bali form, which is exactly the way Madura style would be. It is also interesting to note that Madura is also known for the use of topengan on sheaths.

[wolviex]

Nechesh: I think I can't help much with my answers for this time.
1. TThis kris was collected just after the war, in 1946. Because of war, the history of this object is unknown
2. The metal never was tested. There is a chance it can be tested in special laboratory, but it's not so easy to get there. This is the only place like this in Krakow (maybe in Poland ), the queque is long, and testing expensive
3. I don't know if the gold was plated. I thought it is gilted brass, but tomorrow is a chance I'll show it to the expert who will be able to judge it better than me. Anyway, the head of the deity seems to be heavier and is much more thick then the rest of the metal on the sheath. Maybe it's pure gold or gilted silver or gilted copper - I don't know for sure
4. I didn't took the wrangka off beacuse it is glued so much, that I was worried not to destroy the wood. I know - you will probably say the wrangka was refited to the rest of the sheath. It is possible. As we can see on the pictures of others sheaths, many of them are made entire of pelet wood, while this one is made of simple wood with pelet wood wrangka. Am I going to far with presumptions?
5. The stones in the eyes are high quality, very well made and beautifully cut rock crystals - this is what "experts" say.
6. I don't know anything about Mandurese krises, so if you think this one is not Balinese, it would be good to discuss it with others forum mates, which I hope will be!

Best regards!!

[Henk]

Nechesh,

I'm glad that you mentioned the madura possibility. A few months ago I was in a famous auction house here in Holland. Offered for auction were two maduran keris with this kind of pendok with a bonaspatti mask covering the wrangka in this same way. Not gold but pure silver. Under the openworked pendok was a sleeve of silver to cover the gandar. In my opinion I agree with you that this golden pendok is placed on the backside of the scabbard and I think it had once a sleeve maybe from silver or gold under the pendok. Although the wrangka has balinese characteristics, I cann't get rid of the idea this piece is a madura keris. I think the ukiran is not original to this keris and should be replaced by a fine madura ukiran. For the eyes of the bonaspatti mask, I think they could be inten.

[Montino Bourbon]

The pattern on the blade looks a little like pamor sumsum buron.

[Kiai Carita]

The wood of this keris is called Timoho and the type of Timoho is Timaha Pelet Ceplok Banteng or Belang Sapi, meaning Timoho wood with stains like the markings on a Banteng or a Cow, although in Bali the wood is called Purnamasadha, I believe the Latin name is Kleinhovia Hospita L. The same wood is used for the sheath and also for the danganan which is in the cecekahan style. This type of Timoho is believed by some to bring prosperity.

The ganja iras is an indiction that the keris was made by a village rather than a Kraton Mpu. It might also mean that it was a very old blade as the dapur would seem to be a Java brojol ganja iras. The dapur brojol is one of the oldest shapes of keris blades. The fact that the warangka was not made for this blade indicates that an antique dealer was involved. From a purely physical point of view the warangka with all the gold is more valuable than the blade. The owner of the blade would have made a new warangka specially for his blade if he felt that he needed one. Having a warangka that fits perfectly is an important part of the symbolism of the keris.

Salam keris

[Bill]

is it possible that this keris has a seperate ganga? it appears that if there was a scratch line it has been layered unto. doesn't seem to layers deterioting off as much as layers added & then deterioting? has there ever been the practice of adding layers to a old blade; for whatever purpose?

[Jussi M.]

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[Paul B.]

Hi Wolviex,

Reading your initiated topic about these highly desirable krisses I came across a pic in the collection of the Tropen Museum in Amsterdam. Seems like a twin to me! The pic is rather of poor quality.