Indian Katar

[Tim Simmons]

It would be interesting to compere the hilts with medieval and later hilts of some of the shorter European people.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Tim,

You are wrong, and living in England where you have so many people from India/Pakistan living, I don’t understand that you can’t see, that the arguments from Brian, Lew and myself are right – it is beyond me, but I don’t think your arguments hold water – sorry. There are however, a lot of other questions to e discussed about the hilts, and I hope we can discus them at another time.

Lew, could you show the dot marking, and tell from where you have the translation – please.

Fernando, please realise that the way of fighting in Europe and in India was very different, and this makes the different hilts interesting – have a look at post #8.

[Lew]

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]



Lew, could you show the dot marking, and tell from where you have the translation – please.

Jens

Dot markings on what the katar?

Lew

[B.I]

it seems everyone is getting at tim....so i may as well join in
if you pop down to southall, after spending 2 hours trying to park, you'll easily notice mine and jens' point. i am not saying we are right, but you will see whare we are coming from.
i have a group of cousins from my mothers side - 3 guys, aged between 30 and 40, all of whome can hold my swords that i could hardly fit 4 fingers into. if you go to india, this becomes really apparant as the size difference is very noticeable. the mughal left their mark in more than the architecture, but there are still enough pure hindus to keep me happy in my theory.

a side note, the 16thC 'madrasi' sword that elgood illustrates all have even smaller hilts than a standard tulwar. these are absolutely tiny and date from the 16thC (and before). all of the examples i have seen, and i have seen enough to make a comparison, are of the same small size.
so, i believe both theories work. jens and i believe the hindu 'throwbacks' still exist in small stature, and their ancestors were probably even smaller if you compare these early swords of pure hindu form ot the still-small tulwars of the 19thC.

[Tim Simmons]

My shoulders are broad enough If ever you need a people to pick on it is us Brits. We are tough but most of all enjoy laughing at ourselves . I am sure you are all correct but I shall still mantain that as in other current conflicts an element of combatants were and are teenagers.

[B.I]

hi tim,
i think there is a crossing of points, no doubt instigated by me bowling in without looking!
i agree that weapons in india were also made for the young, but these were exceptionally small. i was referring to the hilts in general being smaller than a european hand could manage, which is an on-going point of discussion (the dreaded fingered ricasso!!).
there are plenty of victorian photos of youths armed, although these are normally children of royalty (only because they were the only ones the photographer was interested in).
all types of arms were made in various sizes (down to daggers for the very young in almost miniature size).
i have also seen full armour made for children.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by B.I

hi tim,
i think there is a crossing of points, no doubt instigated by me bowling in without looking!
i agree that weapons in india were also made for the young, but these were exceptionally small. i was referring to the hilts in general being smaller than a european hand could manage, which is an on-going point of discussion (the dreaded fingered ricasso!!).
there are plenty of victorian photos of youths armed, although these are normally children of royalty (only because they were the only ones the photographer was interested in).
all types of arms were made in various sizes (down to daggers for the very young in almost miniature size).
i have also seen full armour made for children.

Did someone say ricasso? ,

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this before, on Pg 21 of P.S. Rawson's
The Indian Sword, Rawson in discussion on the ricasso states this "The reason for its existance may be to have safeguard the index finger, which art shows to have been sometimes hooked round the front quillion of the hilt in India." Although examples are not given he has some credibility in this satement because, as we all know Rawson's main area of interest was art and the history of art.

All the best.
Jeff

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

It would be interesting to compere the hilts with medieval and later hilts of some of the shorter European people.

Hi Tim,
In page 191 of HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES ( MEN, SWORDS AND BALLS ), the author Rainer Daehnhardt, after weaving some interesting considerations on the Tulwar origins and use, writes: The Portuguese would not use this weapon, firstly because they trusted more their own, and also because the majority of Tulwars grips was so small that rare were the Portuguese hands that could fit into them ( Pictures 51, 52 and 100 ).
This is the guy who owns the shop i bought the pictured katar from.
... and Portuguese were not that big.