True Combat Value of Wootz

[ariel]

So, going back to the combat value of the woorz blades: do we think that the poetic descriptions of Shah Ismail's cutting feats ( see my earlier post) are compatible with real abilities of a very good wootz sword or are gross exaggerations?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ariel

So, going back to the combat value of the woorz blades: do we think that the poetic descriptions of Shah Ismail's cutting feats ( see my earlier post) are compatible with real abilities of a very good wootz sword or are gross exaggerations?

Does he provides the geometry of the blade involved ?

[Rivkin]

Muhammad Mansur Mubarak-Shah in Qitab Adab al-Harb... is quite clear that "gorz (mace), chubak (similar to mace, i think in english it is called warhammer ?), hudzhikan (spear), bulkoteg (another type of mace) - weapon of those confident in their strength and is used against those dressed in ...(names of different types of armor) armor". He gives a few examples of the use of these weapons, telling that tabar can also be used against armored cavalrymen, but never does he speak about swords being used against them. It is obvious that sword can be used against armour; we see numerous references to someone cutting mail so badly it looked like that on David (by memory).
However, from manual it seems to be clear (to me) that sword in principle was not a primeral weapon against heavily armored soldiers: spear, mace-like weapons, even arrows were used against mail.
Now, to Shah Ismail - I would believe in him killing a man, but head to toe, then guns, then another two men - that sounds more like hashish talking. What's the original source for this, I suppose legend ?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I would believe in him killing a man, but head to toe, then guns, then another two men - that sounds more like hashish talking. What's the original source for this, I suppose legend ?

This is obviously a legend. All cultures have similar accounts about the
swords they relied on.
Mace is likely the better weapon against heavy and even not so heavy armor
as chainmail proved to be very resistant even against arrows.
I think that the sword is in some way tied to mankind subconscious.
Even if the mace was so highly valued to begun the materialization of the King power in the sceptre, still is the sword that is used to give power to others and that is portraied in the tombs.
There were a variety of armors on the battlefield and legends always has a little truth in them, might be much lesser and more belivable events took place and were later made gigantic. Old advertising ?

[Lee]

The old Norse had their sagas, verbally handed down, as did most traditional cultures. Our technology gives us CGI enhanced motion pictures and television. In my opinion, the heroic, exaggerated content is the same as always, only the technology has been updated. And I am sure that to have heard one of these tales very well told while sitting around the fire on a cold night then was as much a thrill for my ancestors as that excitement which I experience occasionally at the theater.

[Chris Evans]

Folks,

When attempting to assess extraordinary cutting feats with swords, disregarding the attributes of the steel for a moment, we also have to consider the energy input required to make the cut.

To put it into simple terms: When felling green timber, the quality of the steel from which the axe is made is not all that critical, yet nobody would expect to cut through a smallish tree in a single stroke. Why not? Because the energy required exceeds that which even the most powerful swing can generate - And even if such a mighty lumberman did exists, the handle of the axe would fail.

Now, we have to remember that energy is required not only for the shearing of whatever is being cut, but also to displace the already cut material sideways, so that the thicker shouder of the blade can penetrates, not just its edge. Just what a considerable drain on energy this can be, is best illustrated when cutting with a sword into a large block of moist potters clay. The hardness/toughness/sharpness of the blade in this instance is comparatively insignificant, yet the blade will come to a halt after only a few inches of penetration. The energy of the sword is dissipated by the effort required to displace the cut clay and the friction that the flat of the blade encounters.

I imagine that cleaving through a human body clad in armour, even light armour, will require more energy than what can be delivered by even the mightiest sword arm - Never mind the hilt standing up to the task.


There is a often quoted story from the Napoleonic wars in which a Brit cavalryman cleaved a Frenchmans head, cutting right through his helmet, which I believe was made from brass. But despite that he was using the famous 1796 pattern sabre, and steel quality was not an issue, the cut only reached the victim's jaws, or thereabouts.

I think that extraordinary sword feats from the distant past parallel those of the old archers. Feats that when subjected to mechanical analysis, do not stack up all that well.

Cheers
Chris

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Now, we have to remember that energy is required not only for the shearing of whatever is being cut, but also to displace the already cut material sideways, so that the thicker shouder of the blade can penetrates, not just its edge. ...OMISSIS... The energy of the sword is dissipated by the effort required to displace the cut clay and the friction that the flat of the blade encounters.

So true that the japaneses polishes their blade from back to edge and by hand instead of from handle to point with wheel-grinders as most of other cultures. In this way they create the Niku (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/niku.htm)
that helps to displace the already cut material sideway. The way to perform the cut is also important, as well as the weight of the blade, a detail undervalued by many wannabe experts.